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Kauto Star even at his tender age is a Superstar and miles bettrer than Best Mate ever was.
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Why don’t you wait a couple of years with hindsight before saying that, because it is far from conclusive. KS has a beautiful running style in that he travels like a dream (albeit not in his last race) and then quickens. That has made him appear like a very good horse, perhaps better than he is. He hasn’t achieved as much as Best Mate and if Best Mate beat little, then KS has beaten nothing better.
Kauto Star even at his tender age is a Superstar and miles bettrer than Best Mate ever was.
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Why don’t you wait a couple of years with hindsight before saying that, because it is far from conclusive. KS has a beautiful running style in that he travels like a dream (albeit not in his last race) and then quickens. That has made him appear like a very good horse, perhaps better than he is. He hasn’t achieved as much as Best Mate and if Best Mate beat little, then KS has beaten nothing better.
Exotic Dancer would’ve been King George and Gold Cup winer without Kauto Star. He’s a way, way better horse than the likes of Sir Rembrandt who Best Mate beat.
Great thread and like I said I’m a big Kauto Star fan but have you gone completely mad Fist of Fury 2k8?
1 – Best Mate wasn’t a Cheltenham horse?
2 – Best Mate was better at Kempton than @ Cheltenham?
3 – Stepped through some of his fences?
4 – Flopping his belly through some of the fences?1 – 3 Gold Cups (5 from 6 career record, should have been 6 from 6 but for a bad ride).
2 – He travelled brilliantly at Kempton but always struggled to pick up hence why he missed two King Georges in favour of a trip to Ireland.
3 – I have every Best Mate race on DVD and I think I can remember about three mistakes in his whole career (two in defeat to Jair Du Cochet and one at the second last when beating Douze Douze, both at Huntingdon). Kauto Star is a good jumper on the whole but made at least three horrendous blunders during the mid-latter part of last season alone.
4 – See point 3.
And referring to my Best Mate/Kauto Star comparison as stupid. I go on what I’ve seen not what might happen in the future. I’d love nothing better than Kauto Star to win by a distance on Saturday and then go on to win 5 Gold Cups (all by a distance
)but if a peak BM and a peak KS met tomorrow over the Gold Cup course/distance, I would be in the Best Mate corner.Were L’Escargot, The Dikler, Captain Christy & Pendil not all past their best by 1977 (I did say the last 30 years)? Desert Orchid wouldn’t have beaten BM at Cheltenham/Leopardstown (those were the races I referred to) because Des hated going left-handed.
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Why don’t you wait a couple of years with hindsight before saying that, because it is far from conclusive. KS has a beautiful running style in that he travels like a dream (albeit not in his last race) and then quickens. That has made him appear like a very good horse, perhaps better than he is. He hasn’t achieved as much as Best Mate and if Best Mate beat little, then KS has beaten nothing better.
The fact he hasn’t won 3 Gold Cups means what? Wait for What? There are many many horses who were far superior to Best Mate that never won a Gold Cup. KS is definately one of them. Travels well, stays, Quickens like a greyhound and totally outclasses everything around……He was awesome in the Tingle…….a sight to behold…when di Best mate ever turn in a performance like that. For Pete’s sake open your eyes.
Great thread and like I said I’m a big Kauto Star fan but have you gone completely mad Fist of Fury 2k8?
1 – Best Mate wasn’t a Cheltenham horse?
2 – Best Mate was better at Kempton than @ Cheltenham?
3 – Stepped through some of his fences?
4 – Flopping his belly through some of the fences?1 – 3 Gold Cups (5 from 6 career record, should have been 6 from 6 but for a bad ride).
2 – He travelled brilliantly at Kempton but always struggled to pick up hence why he missed two King Georges in favour of a trip to Ireland.
3 – I have every Best Mate race on DVD and I think I can remember about three mistakes in his whole career (two in defeat to Jair Du Cochet and one at the second last when beating Douze Douze, both at Huntingdon). Kauto Star is a good jumper on the whole but made at least three horrendous blunders during the mid-latter part of last season alone.
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I’ve always been mad what’s your excuse?
If Cheltenham suited best Best Mate the he wasn’t a quarter of the horse you think he was. He’s cruising, looking all over the winner and 3 Old boats that wouldn’t have blown wind up Kauto’s backside fnished in a heap right behind him. Had that been a good galloping track like Newbury or similar he would have won 10 lengths from that lot of old boats.
2. Very fast/sharp track Kempton and they made the right desicion, but Cheltenham is not in Ireland. You are making a comparison that has nothing to do with anything I said. He MUST go to Cheltenham that’s where they run the Gold Cup there is no alternative or he wouldn’t have went within 10 miles of the place.
No one is talking about terrible blunders…..the word I responded to was "Spectacular" He was all wrong many many times at fences but he had great balance and could fiddle a fence better than most. I don’t supose you ride horses by any chance?
I suggest you replay the King George 2002 again only this time take the rose coloured glasses off and remember we are talking about "Spectacular Jumpers here"
He makes 4 errors in the race the worst of which is at the 3rd last if I can remember. He went into the fence 3 to 4 lenghts clear and came out of it 1/2 length in front………very spectacular
. He made many similar errors in he’s career, but was good and a very economical jumper but never ever spectacular. That’s just someone who’s getting a tiny bit carried away.- Total Posts 170
Granted my time comparison was probably not the best comparison the worlds ever seen.
All I was trying to show is that, we cannot ever compare the races they won as they beat different horses at different stages of their career – at least times shows the distance they run at. But true – for jumps racing its not exactly the same science…
I think Cian summed up far more eloquently what i was trying to say.
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject:
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Fist of Fury 2k8 wrote:
Kauto Star even at his tender age is a Superstar and miles bettrer than Best Mate ever was.
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Why don’t you wait a couple of years with hindsight before saying that, because it is far from conclusive. KS has a beautiful running style in that he travels like a dream (albeit not in his last race) and then quickens. That has made him appear like a very good horse, perhaps better than he is. He hasn’t achieved as much as Best Mate and if Best Mate beat little, then KS has beaten nothing better.
You can compare any horse you like at another…….it’s not that difficult.
All you do is ask me which horse was the best Kauto or Best and I say Kauto……Then you know the answer it’s that easy
Seriously though it’s experience knowledge combined with experiece that we use to judge these things.
We don’t have to be geniuses to know Arkle is the best horse ever to jump a fence or to come to the conclusion that Muhammad Ali would beat the current world heavyweight champions with ease. People will always compare and people will deabte. Unfortunately some people compare without logic, wear rose coloured glasses and couldn’t spot a good horse if it jumped up and bit them
I have to say I disagree with you FoF over the Best Mate v Kauto Star comparison.
Agreed in Best Mate’s era there wasn’t a wealth of decent 3M+ chasers but he still managed to beat in his time around ten other Grade1 chase winners (agreed some unreliable horses amongst them, but obviously useful on their day) and around half a dozen other Grade1 novice chase winners. He also managed to beat a multiple Grade1 chaser Beef Or Salmon in his prime in Ireland. I also take issue with the fact I think Best Mate was a Cheltenham horse and definitely not a Kempton horse. I actually think he was better going Cheltenham way round than Kempton, and was a better horse in the hands of J Culloty than AP McCoy. In his three Gold Cup wins I can’t remember him making the semblance of a bad mistake, although I agree he wasn’t spectacular, however if economical means getting to the other side of the fence in the quickest manner then give me one of those over a spectacular any day.
Kauto Star so far – last season he beat 4 previous Grade1 winners and three Grade1 novice chase winners. The Grade1 winners were Beef Or Salmon (in England),Kingscliff, Central House & The Listener. Grade1 novice chase winners were Voy Per Ustedes, Forget The Past & Ollie Magern. At Cheltenham and Kempton he beat Exotic Dancer who improved around 30lb during the season , primarily based on KS rating. You could also say the proximity of Racing Demon (overrated) in the King George & Turpin Green (upped 18lb for his Gold Cup run) slightly devalued the form.
So on both counts you could say what have both these horses beat. I believe Best Mate could have bettered his official rating if able to race against better opposition, he had a nice cruising speed and IMHO was a fluent jumper. Kauto Star could turn out to be better yet, but we will have to see however I don’t think you can judge him a Superstar based on what he beat last year.
My conlusion to the topic of this thread has already been documented. I think Moscow Flyer would have defeated Best Mate over 2 1/2 miles, between 5 – 8 lengths.
Since this thread has evolved into Best Mate vs Kauto Star, I’ll give you my verdict on this hypothetical contest.
It’s always difficult to compare two horses from different eras. It’s just as difficult to compare who they competed against. Best Mate didn’t beat anything special during his reign. I wouldn’t call him a pulsating champion because everthing he did was workmanlike, which makes me believe that he had plenty in reserve.
Kauto Star could be something very special. Last year he defeated the eventual Champion Chaser over two miles before beating a solid, yet unspectacular, Gold Cup field. His victory in the King George demonstrated just how versatile he can be. Racing quite handy throughout before winning on a flat, right-handed track.
At this present time you can’t compare Kauto Star to Best Mate. Kauto Star appears to have superior ability but he hasn’t achieved anything substantial at present. Best Mate’s name is already indelibly etched in the record books and, on what we know at present, would have defeated Kauto Star over three miles. A second KG and Gold Cup for Kauto will open this debate further. The Gold Cup could assemble a really decent field this year and the main protagonists will all want ground on the soft side of good, like KS.
FistofFury, your respective photos actually display what a great jumper BM was. He, as you quite rightly wrote, was a well balanced horse. He would, more often than not, get quite low at his fences without ever look like falling – a sign of courage and great coordination. This reduces ‘hang-time’ and allowed him to gain lengths at his fences.
At this present time you can’t compare Kauto Star to Best Mate. Kauto Star appears to have superior ability but he hasn’t achieved anything substantial at present.
I have to disagree, Bosranic.
A King George/Gold Cup winner who also beat the Champion Chaser over 2m in the Tingle Creek, winning the race for the second time in the process?
For me, Kauto Star has already achieved more than Best Mate. He’s shown measurably better form (imo), and displayed a versatility that Best Mate could only dream about……or wasn’t allowed to show due to the nature of his uber-cautious connections.
If Best Mate is compared unfavourably with Kauto Star, point the finger at connections, who never allowed him a shot at genuine greatness.
If Best Mate is compared unfavourably with Kauto Star, point the finger at connections, who never allowed him a shot at genuine greatness.
What would allowing Best Mate a shot at genuine greateness have involved?
Perhaps a campaign similiar to Kauto Star’s last sason, Gus?
A romp giving weight away in a handicap, a defeat of the Arkle winner (and future Champion Chaser) over an inadequate 2m, thoroughly gubbing the best staying chasers around in a Grade 1 over 3m, an effortless King George win, a battling win conceding 10lbs to the previous season’s Gold Cup 4th……………………….a comprehensive Gold Cup victory……………you know……….that kind of stuff.
None of these performances in isolation spell ‘greatness’, but when viewed in context over the course of a single season, they do. IMO, at least.
If Best Mate is compared unfavourably with Kauto Star, point the finger at connections, who never allowed him a shot at genuine greatness.
I know what you’re saying, Grass, but connections would argue that winning three GC’s, putting him in an exclusive club with only Arkle for company would also qualify as ‘genuine greatness’. And IMO they’d have a point.
Well, ok………………’greatness’ is a personal thing, isn’t it…………….Frank Bruno won the same boxing title as Muhammed Ali, but you wouldn’t let Frank anywhere near the same ring as Ali………….know what I mean ‘arry?
I fought Barry Mcguigan once…………………had him worried for a while………………he thought he’d killed me……………(copyright Tommy Cooper – 1974)
Grasshopper
I would take issue on a couple of points you raised
A romp giving weight away in a handicap – Agreed
a defeat of the Arkle winner (and future Champion Chaser) over an inadequate 2m – I think more of an indication of how poor the 2M division is nowadays, if he’d done that to Well Chief then thats another matter altogether.
thoroughly gubbing the best staying chasers around in a Grade 1 over 3m – Best staying chasers ?? Ollie Magern rated 147, Kingscliff, hadn’t run a decent race in 12 months, L’Ami – mid 150’s rated at best, Beef Or Salmon, top top class in Ireland, in England a good 7-10lb less IMHO, and Iris’s Gift – if that was one of the best staying chasers then we are in trouble. There was no sign of any of the placed horses in either the Gold Cup or the King George in this race so the best ?
an effortless King George win – I’ll concede that though as previously stated the closeness of Racing Demon would give me doubts
a battling win conceding 10lbs to the previous season’s Gold Cup 4th – agreed, muddling race
a comprehensive Gold Cup victory – not so sure about this one, proximity of Turpin Green would be a slight worry and I have a slight niggle about the trip and Cheltenham in a truely run race.
Believe it or not this not meant to really devalue Kauto Stars achievements but I would like to see him do similar this year to confirm the high opinions people have of him already. Needless to say it wouldn’t surprise me to see him sweep albefore him again this season and I will genuinely take my hat off to him , but it wouldn’t altogether surprise me if he didn’t.
Some people are never happy
I am struggling to think of a another chaser who has achieved so much over such a variety of challenges in one season in the last 25 years. Only Desert Orchid springs to mind
If he doesnt win another race, he will still go down as a great as far as i am concerned. It was a stunning campaign…
A romp giving weight away in a handicap, a defeat of the Arkle winner (and future Champion Chaser) over an inadequate 2m, thoroughly gubbing the best staying chasers around in a Grade 1 over 3m, an effortless King George win, a battling win conceding 10lbs to the previous season’s Gold Cup 4th……………………….a comprehensive Gold Cup victory……………you know……….that kind of stuff.
None of these performances in isolation spell ‘greatness’, but when viewed in context over the course of a single season, they do. IMO, at least.
Spot on GH. Let’s hope for more of the similar this year, or perhaps more pertinently that his busy (by modern standards) annus mirabilis hasn’t soured the horse; his run at Aintree continues to nag.
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