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At last! Grassy admits something that we’ve all known for a long time.
Maybe the others will follow suit? But i won’t hold my breath 
Moscow Flyer was a better horse than Best Mate. Over 2m4f Moscow Flyer would have beaten Best Mate.
Over 2m4f Moscow Flyer would have beaten Kauto Star. Over 3m, Kauto Star would have beaten Best Mate.
Best Mate’s three Gold Cups (colossal feat though it was) have blinkered most people’s opinion regarding his ability.
It’s like the old Nijinsky v Mill Reef, Sea Bird v Ribot, Brigadier Gerard v Tudor Minstrel or Secretariat v Man O’ War debates.
Makes for good discussion and argument, but we’ll never which one would have prevailed.
But hey, just for the record.
Best Mate, Nijinsky, Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard and Secretariat.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Moscow Flyer was a better horse than Best Mate. Over 2m4f Moscow Flyer would have beaten Best Mate.
Over 2m4f Moscow Flyer would have beaten Kauto Star. Over 3m, Kauto Star would have beaten Best Mate.
Best Mate’s three Gold Cups (colossal feat though it was) have blinkered most people’s opinion regarding his ability.
Best Mate I agree with you was no Arkle L’Escargot etc.,
Moscow was a very very good horse……but no where near the best 2 mile horse I have seen by a long long way. Depnding on your generation we all get carried away especially if you never saw horses Like Flying Bolt, Remittance Man Barnbrook Again Drinnies Double Pearlyman Dunkirk and M Dickinson’s Badsworth Boy to mention a few.
Kauto Star is a different ball game. For me he is the best horse I have seen since Arkle. In all these years only Fred Winters Killiney has passed my lips in the same breath as Himself and that includes the great but vastly over rated Flying Bolt. who was never within a stone of Arkle but it made good reading at the time.
I am a very hard man to please but this guy just has everything I would ever want in a horse. I wouldn’t care what distance it was 2.5 miles to 3.5 miles no one will convince me there is a better horse around nor has there been in the last decade or more.
He was an infant last year…. you watch him this season. Here is my forecast…….he will be 1/2 or less on Gold Cup day and there will be no more than 8 runners. He will win very very easily.
Could I be wrong? you can bet your last dime I could, but I doubt it.
When people question the ability of Best Mate it oftens brings a wry grin to my face.
The history books will say he won three Gold Cups and a King George. It’s the comparisons to Arkle that angered many and made them question his ability. People forget that he ran Florida Pearl to within a length as a mere 6YO in the KG and probably would have won given a more positive ride.
His ability, beauty (never have I seen a better looking horse), jumping ability, courage and connections are what made him such an endearing and much loved horse. This is why, regardless of his ability, Kauto Star will never receive such affection.
I would rather be connected to a horse who holds public affection than critical acclaim.
BM vs MF over 2 1/2 miles? Moscow Flyer would defeat Best Mate over this trip. Best Mate was a far superior horse over three miles. Moscow Flyer (who won both his chase starts over 2 1/2) would have possessed too much speed over this distance. MF would prevail by 5-8 lengths.
People forget about him running Florida Pearl close because it has no significance on anything as Florida Pearl was pretty ordinary as far as "Great Horses" go.
There is no way you could compare Best Mate to Arkle never in a trillion years. In swear if the 2 had run in a handicap Arkle would be on 12 stone 7lbs and Best Mate somewhere around 10 sone 4 lbs. You obviously weren’t around then. When Arkle took off he was a total powerhose. He galloped more like Sir Ivor than he did a chaser.
Make no mistake if Kauto Star wins the KG and Gold Cup this season he will be remembered as one of the best of all time. Best Mate will hardly come up in conversation. Best Mate’s races in the gold cup were 2 of the worst Gold Cups seen in 40 years……..bunch of moderate old plodders who wouldn’t even have been entered in Arkle’s era. Arkle won his Gold cups in hack canters not getting ten Bells knocked out of him to get past some cart horses.
Best Mate was a lovely well balanced BORING individual, Character horses like Rummy or Dessie e.g..are the ones people remember…..How many times do you hear people talk about See you Then in comparison to Persia War who one the Champion Hurdle 40 years ago? See You Who???
Kauto is a cracking looking horse. He has an awesome presence about him and has Champion written all over him…Best mate wouldn’t be in the record books had this fellow been around at the same time as him.
People forget about him running Florida Pearl close because it has no significance on anything as Florida Pearl was pretty ordinary as far as "Great Horses" go.
There is no way you could compare Best Mate to Arkle never in a trillion years. In swear if the 2 had run in a handicap Arkle would be on 12 stone 7lbs and Best Mate somewhere around 10 sone 4 lbs. You obviously weren’t around then. When Arkle took off he was a total powerhose. He galloped more like Sir Ivor than he did a chaser.
Make no mistake if Kauto Star wins the KG and Gold Cup this season he will be remembered as one of the best of all time. Best Mate will hardly come up in conversation. Best Mate’s races in the gold cup were 2 of the worst Gold Cups seen in 40 years……..bunch of moderate old plodders who wouldn’t even have been entered in Arkle’s era. Arkle won his Gold cups in hack canters not getting ten Bells knocked out of him to get past some cart horses.
Best Mate was a lovely well balanced BORING individual, Character horses like Rummy or Dessie e.g..are the ones people remember…..How many times do you hear people talk about See you Then in comparison to Persia War who one the Champion Hurdle 40 years ago? See You Who???
Kauto is a cracking looking horse. He has an awesome presence about him and has Champion written all over him…Best mate wouldn’t be in the record books had this fellow been around at the same time as him.
Hi, FoF
I would never compare Best Mate to Arkle.
You’re right, I wasn’t around during the ‘Arkle era’ (it would be another 16 years before I graced this world
). For that reason alone, Arkle doesn’t ‘belong to me’ because I wasn’t part of his generation. I’m aware of his legendary feats – three Cheltenham Gold Cups, two Hennessy Gold Cups, a Whitbread, King George and many, many more amazing feats. I believe he even finished second in a King George with a fractured pedal bone.I would never compare two horses from different generations. If Kauto Star wins 5 Gold Cups, 5 King George’s and, in the process, beats the eventual Champion Chaser every year (like in the Tingle Creek last year) then people will still say ‘He was great, but not as good as Arkle’, citing that this was a poor era.
I disagree with your last comment. Again, I don’t like comparing two horses when they have no chance of racing each other. You’re entitled to your opinion but you could say that about any previous Gold Cup winner. Would Kicking King have won the 2005 Gold Cup if Best Mate hadn’t been injured?
Who knows, we could be debating about Best Mate, four-times Gold Cup winner. Then what would his detractors say….Arkle 3: Best Mate 4.
The criticism Best Mate gets really irritates me I must say. Of course he wasn’t in the same parish as Arkle but if it’s so easy to win three Gold Cup’s why hadn’t anything else done it for almost 40 years? And by haven’t we seen some good horses during that time. That is the thing about him regardless of what he beat – he had the full package – speed, stamina, ability, courage, durability, he handled Cheltenham, ideal connections, a solid jockey, a bit of luck that they all need and obviously he was a great jumper.
I was a big Best Mate fan and I’m a big Kauto Star fan but I would have been firmly in the BM camp if they had ever met at the peak of their powers in a Gold Cup.
I actually believe that we never actually got to see exactly how good Best Mate was and that’s the thing – because he was campaigned so sparingly we just didn’t see it. The only two times we saw him close to/at this peak were in his second Gold Cup & the Ericsson IMO and I don’t think that many horses from the last 30 years would have got near him on those two occasions, particularly the former.
I think that he could have done some damage to other horses mentioned in this thread if had ran in a Hennessy or a Tingle Creek at that time (2003).
Well said young Paul
Some people just don’t appreciate the brilliance of Best Mate.On the subject of KS,I’m not as big a fan as you. He’s obviously a very good horse, but he will never win three Gold Cups-Maybe not even two.His backers will always have their hearts in their mouths when he approaches each fence-No such worries with the beautiful,graceful and magnificent jumper that was BEST MATE.
You are also entitled to yours. However the comparison you make isn’t woth a pinch of salt. Neither horses form is worth a dogs breakfast over 2 miles 4 furlongs.
So lets settle for this. If they met over 2 miles at Cheltenham Moscow Flyer after a hard fought battle would show his superior speed and win by 2 lenths. If it was over 3 miles at Kempton Moscow would never get the trip in a million years stop to crawl at the 3rd last and come home beaten 62 lengths.
now take the 2 lengths from Cheltenham and the 62 lengths from kempton add them together and divided them by 2.5 miles at Aintree and you get 24.8 lengths victory for Best Mate. That’s a lot of distance for your horse to make up……..if you want maybe I can talk to the handicapper and get him to give matey a couple lbs extra and make it fair.
Geez Grasshopper don’t you know anything about racing?
There is no way on Gods earth Best Mate would get within 2 lengths of Moscow Flyer over two miles or am I reading this meaning all wrong?
Best Mate was a plodder who beat nothing special despite winning three Gold Cups. At 2 – 2 1/2 miles Moscow Flyer would’ve beaten Best Mate with ease, far better horse altogether.
As for Best Mate v Kauto Star – at any trip Kauto would’ve mullered Best Mate, different leagues entirely.
The criticism Best Mate gets really irritates me I must say. Of course he wasn’t in the same parish as Arkle but if it’s so easy to win three Gold Cup’s why hadn’t anything else done it for almost 40 years? And by haven’t we seen some good horses during that time. That is the thing about him regardless of what he beat – he had the full package – speed, stamina, ability, courage, durability, he handled Cheltenham, ideal connections, a solid jockey, a bit of luck that they all need and obviously he was a great jumper.
I was a big Best Mate fan and I’m a big Kauto Star fan but I would have been firmly in the BM camp if they had ever met at the peak of their powers in a Gold Cup.
I actually believe that we never actually got to see exactly how good Best Mate was and that’s the thing – because he was campaigned so sparingly we just didn’t see it. The only two times we saw him close to/at this peak were in his second Gold Cup & the Ericsson IMO and I don’t think that many horses from the last 30 years would have got near him on those two occasions, particularly the former.
I think that he could have done some damage to other horses mentioned in this thread if had ran in a Hennessy or a Tingle Creek at that time (2003).
I think a couple would have got more than near him, L’Escargot The Dickler and Captain Christie were much classier animals. Silver Buck would have Kicked him right into touch at any distance. At 3 miles maybe Dessie might bustle him up a little
And Then There’s a couple who never won Gold Cups but had he met them in the King George he wouldn’t have been sighted. Have you heard of Wayward Lad or Pendil.Best Mate stays sound for 3 seasons which was a great feat by his trainer.
Had they not run him so sparingly he would most likely not have won 3 times. Had some of the others been trained differently who knowsI can’t believe your statement about Best Mate and Kauto Star. I am sorry to be so blunt and don’t mean to offend , but it is alittle bit stupid.
How can you possible make a statement like that when Kauto Star is still a baby and has probably 2 or 3 good season left in him. He could potentially improve a stone, like Bregawn did between gold cups. I think you are being a tiny bit premature and will be eating your words come March.
Well I won’t say I told you so. But I did.
I must admit though, had your Jockey not been such a showboater you might have got closer.
- Total Posts 170
For those who like times (as you can’t argue against the clock)
Best Mate’s second Gold Cup win – 6min’s 39 seconds – at a canter – nothing too race against from 2 out. (Good)
Best Mate first KG (when he came second to Floida Pearl) – Winner won in 5min 57.95secs with Best Mate 3/4 length in second. (Good ground) (When Best mate won it, it was soft and he won in 6mins 20 secsin SOFT)Kauto Star’s Gold Cup – 6min 40.46 seconds (Good to soft)
Kauto Star’s King George – 6min 5.70 sec (Good to soft)I know some people are fascinated by times – so thought they maybe interested to see the above.
Both of the times that Best Mate recorderd was on better ground (Good) – but I think shows, there would not be much between Best Mate at his best and Kauto Star (at what he has shown this far over 3 miles).
Kauto may improve again. He may not. The jury is still out. Would be great to see a real good stayer take him on come March – as I am not sure he gets 3 miles under decent competition.
And all this talk that Kauto is the best since Arkle – over 3 miles – he has only beaten a decent Exotic Dancer. What else?? Give him 2 years, if he puts in another Gold Cup and a couple of other good performances (which for the record, I would like him to – racing needs superstars) – then you can state he is one of the best in a decade. But until then…
aaftershock
Using times in such a crude manner shows absolutely nothing. Also it’s worth noting that Kauto Star’s Gold Cup was run on much faster ground than the official and at a relatively steady pace.
Using times in any manner is a bit of a waste of time over the sticks IMO
I cannot see how the " jury is out" on Kauto. And on the other hand i cant get my head round some of the supposed observations about that seemingly second rate handicapper… Best Mate
Whatever the merits of the form, i would say that Best Mate was the most pleasing horse to watch since Desert Orchid
This thread is going off the deepend.
Whether he would have beaten Moscow or Not we will never know but one things for sure. He was a much better round Kempton’s sharp 3 miles than he was at Cheltenham.
Unless the 3 who finished right up his backside were all top class (none of them were) his Gold Cup victory in 2004 was very ordinary. He just wasn’t a Cheltenham Horse IMO he was however the best of a bad lot hence his 3 victories.
To say Moscow would have beaten him easily over 2m4f is poppycock.
In the King George they went a helluva gallop and nothing was finishing. Four Furlongs out Best Mate was running away with his Jockey and had it been it been a 2m4f race would have beat that lot by 10 lengths.
This made me laugh "beautiful,graceful and magnificent jumper that was BEST MATE." he was magnificent my backside. He was a really strong brute, could be very untidy at times and stepped some of his fences, he also cost himself a lot of ground at times flopping his big belly through fences, " To be fair over he judged his jumping well and was economical but was never "spetacular"….had he been a "spectacular" jumper he my well have won his races in better fansion than he did.
When Kauto get one right he is a much better jumper than Best Mate ever was. Although he’s young and definately got a screw loose and gets over zealous and trys to walk through them as we know. Hopefully he will get over the habit of thinking he’s a suicide bober plane and not a horse
Here’s how a real Champion jumps
http://files-upload.com/files/628601/greatpic.JPG
Here’s a typical Best mate jump
http://files-upload.com/files/628801/Best Mate Jump.JPG
and her’s my pal Kauto on a good stride
http://files-upload.com/files/628804/Grand leap.JPG
He runs on Saturday and if he falls flat on his face I am going to look like a real plonker. But it’s ok I will go into hiding for a month change my name and come back as a Moscow Flyer fan
Just had to come back and say this.
Reading the post on here regarding Best Mate and Kauto Star you had my doubting my own mind ) I must be getting old
I have to be blunt, I think anyone who even tries to compare the 2 has lost their marbles.
Kauto Star even at his tender age is a Superstar and miles bettrer than Best Mate ever was.
He was unbelievable in the Tingle Creek and the way he swept past a wall of horses on the Gold Cup is something you will be lucky to see once in a lifetime.
Things don’t always turn out the way we want them and nothing is certain in racing But enjoy this fellow while you can and hope he goes on to even better things cos it could be a long, long time before you see one as good again.
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