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C’mon Grassy, even you can’t claim half of the above list to be 2 milers?
I dunno reet. All of them, Monet’s Garden apart, either won or were placed in a Champion Chase. Make of that what you will.
PS. The ground for this fantasy-match is completely immaterial, imo. Moscow Flyer was proven on every type of surface imaginable, whereas Best Mate – according to his trainer (and some might say the form book) – didn’t go a yard on soft or heavy. Of the pair, it is Best Mate who would have a ground-dependency to show his best form – not Moscow Flyer.
Listen to Bruce Grasshopper you are a long way from taking the pebble out of my hand.
None of the above got into a champion v champion clash like this.
You don’t get many for obvious reasons
The most famous one was
Dunkirk V Arkle at kempton
2.2 furlong later Dunkirk had gone such a pace Arkle trying to hsake arke he had nothing left in the tank. Unfortuanetly he fell and was killed but Arkle had already swept past him at the time.
Running against a top class horse is a lifetime of differnece to winning over 2.4m on good ground against a bunch of no hopers.
The pace is stronger and the trip becomes much harder to get.
Moscow Flyer was all over a 2 mile horse they ran at Aintree because it was easy puckings and the ground suited them.
The only time he ran on soft over the trip he was beaten easily.
Best Mate was the horse they said was a 2 1/2 to 3 mile horse and said wouldn’t get the Gold Cup trip. He was no slouch over 2 1/2 having finished 2nd to Barton when he was all wrong at Aintree,
Moscow Flyer won a lot of very bad races at very short prices. He also won good races but never by far. Azertyuiop 1 1/2 lengths….Well Chief 2 lengths for example.
He was and always will be a top class 2 mile chaser. Put him in against a Horse like Best Mate who was a triple Gold Cup Winner ( not some mickey mouse no hoper) over 2 1/2 in soft or heavy he simply have way too many guns for him. as Moscow just wouldn’t get the trip.
You’re kidding me Bruce, right?
Firstly, the invocation of Arkle into your argument, tells me that I’ve already won on a technical knockout, so I won’t indluge that line of reasoning any further.
Secondly, Moscow Flyer won a bundle of G1 chases in Ireland by short distances, because he never, ever, did a tap in front.
Thirdly, in terms of ‘class’, Moscow Flyer beat Azertyuiop and Well Chief in the Tingle Creek when those horses were rated 178 and 176 (if I recall correctly). That would make them some….I dunno….a stone perhaps?….better animals than anything Best Mate ever had to tackle in any of his three Gold Cup’s (the routinely-disappointing-at-Cheltenham Beef Or Salmon apart).
For the record, Moscow Flyer raced over fences twice at 2m4f – both times at Aintree in the Melling Chase. He hacked-up from Isio the first time by 7L, and he hacked-up from Le Roi Miguel the second time by 16L, with the race reader describing the performances as “readily” and “impressive” respectively.
Over to you.
If the race was run at Aintree, I reckon it would have been close.
At Cheltenham, I have no doubt that Best Mate would have defeated Moscow Flyer.
In my opinion, Best Mate was a class act, irrespective of what his detractors may think. I would rate him along with Burrough Hill Lad as the best Gold Cup winner since you know who.
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Can’t believe this argument is still trundling on….
Best Mate beat slow horses his Gold Cups – Truckers Tavern, Sir Rembrandt – god it feels like hard work just typing their names in.
He was a great jumper of a fence and hats of to Henrietta for getting him right for 3 Gold Cups, but sorry guys – he just wasnt that good a chaser…..
Compare and contrast that with Moscow Flyer, who time and time again proved himself to be the best horse in a very smart 2 mile division. He was proven over 2m4f and would have stuffed Best Mate out of sight had they met at the trip. I also happen to believe that Best Mate would have been stuffed out of sight by Kauto Star over any trip.
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But Grasshopper – you write Isio down as if you were refering to a very good yardstick – he was a decent handicapper who beat Azer by a neck when receiving 19 pounds.
The things is – I don’t want to be drawn 100% on critiquing their records as Moscow should (and will go down) as a legend of the 2 miles realm. He was one of the horses (along with Best Mate) that cemented my love for racing.
Beat Mate, however hard it is for people to accept, will go down as a legend that won three Gold Cups. He may have only just jumped the last as Arkle would have been crossing the finishing line, as so many like to think, fair enough, but what he achieved in winning 3 gold cups was exceptional. Proving himself, staying fit – for 3 years. This is also after finshing second in the supreme Novices and being denied an Arkle when favourite. Winning a King George and probably, should have won 2 if they had gone earlier on him the year before. Why people feel the need to pick holes I am not sure. He was a great horse – the best we saw over 3 miles for a long time.
For the record 2 miles 4 at Aintree – Moscow wins by 3 lengths. 2 miles 4 Cheltenham, Moscow wins be a neck – 2 miles 6 furlongs – Best Mate jumps the last in to the lead and wins by 4 going away as Moscow can’t get up the hill!
Kauto Star write now is being lauded, rightly so, as the best chaser around. But will he be able to produce it for 3 years running – or arguably 5years if you count Best Mate’s earlier form – this is why people love NH, the horses are around for a longer and you gain a love for them (rather then being sent for stud at 2!!!)
- Total Posts 170
Long story Colin. Long story….!
But Grasshopper – you write Isio down as if you were refering to a very good yardstick – he was a decent handicapper who beat Azer by a neck when receiving 19 pounds.
The things is – I don’t want to be drawn 100% on critiquing their records as Moscow should (and will go down) as a legend of the 2 miles realm. He was one of the horses (along with Best Mate) that cemented my love for racing.
Beat Mate, however hard it is for people to accept, will go down as a legend that won three Gold Cups. He may have only just jumped the last as Arkle would have been crossing the finishing line, as so many like to think, fair enough, but what he achieved in winning 3 gold cups was exceptional. Proving himself, staying fit – for 3 years. This is also after finshing second in the supreme Novices and being denied an Arkle when favourite. Winning a King George and probably, should have won 2 if they had gone earlier on him the year before. Why people feel the need to pick holes I am not sure. He was a great horse – the best we saw over 3 miles for a long time.
For the record 2 miles 4 at Aintree – Moscow wins by 3 lengths. 2 miles 4 Cheltenham, Moscow wins be a neck – 2 miles 6 furlongs – Best Mate jumps the last in to the lead and wins by 4 going away as Moscow can’t get up the hill!
Kauto Star write now is being lauded, rightly so, as the best chaser around. But will he be able to produce it for 3 years running – or arguably 5years if you count Best Mate’s earlier form – this is why people love NH, the horses are around for a longer and you gain a love for them (rather then being sent for stud at 2!!!)
aaftershock, I make no reference to whether Isio is a good yardstick or not. I merely mention him in the context of how effortless Moscow Flyer’s win was in that particular race, and to correct FoF’s assertion that Moscow Flyer was beaten the ‘one time’ he tried the trip.
I agree entirely with thedarkknight’s assessment of Best Mate.
I’m really not sure how anyone could think, under any conditions, Moscow Flyer wouldn’t win this, and easily too.
Moscow Flyer.
Only the Best Mate of 2003 – i.e. at his absolute best – would even have threatened to get him off the bridle.
We will never know, will we??……. and, as we do know, racing is very unpredictable.
I know these forums are all about offering opinions but I find threads like these a little frustrating. Where are they expected to go? So often they end up with someone slagging off someone else, and then one or the other leaves the forum in a huff and a flounce.
But of course, that is only my opinion.
Colin
Listen to Bruce Grasshopper you are a long way from taking the pebble out of my hand.
None of the above got into a champion v champion clash like this.
You don’t get many for obvious reasons
The most famous one was
Dunkirk V Arkle at kempton
2.2 furlong later Dunkirk had gone such a pace Arkle trying to hsake arke he had nothing left in the tank. Unfortuanetly he fell and was killed but Arkle had already swept past him at the time.
Running against a top class horse is a lifetime of differnece to winning over 2.4m on good ground against a bunch of no hopers.
The pace is stronger and the trip becomes much harder to get.
Moscow Flyer was all over a 2 mile horse they ran at Aintree because it was easy puckings and the ground suited them.
The only time he ran on soft over the trip he was beaten easily.
Best Mate was the horse they said was a 2 1/2 to 3 mile horse and said wouldn’t get the Gold Cup trip. He was no slouch over 2 1/2 having finished 2nd to Barton when he was all wrong at Aintree,
Moscow Flyer won a lot of very bad races at very short prices. He also won good races but never by far. Azertyuiop 1 1/2 lengths….Well Chief 2 lengths for example.
He was and always will be a top class 2 mile chaser. Put him in against a Horse like Best Mate who was a triple Gold Cup Winner ( not some mickey mouse no hoper) over 2 1/2 in soft or heavy he simply have way too many guns for him. as Moscow just wouldn’t get the trip.
You’re kidding me Bruce, right?
Firstly, the invocation of Arkle into your argument, tells me that I’ve already won on a technical knockout, so I won’t indluge that line of reasoning any further.
Secondly, Moscow Flyer won a bundle of G1 chases in Ireland by short distances, because he never, ever, did a tap in front.
Thirdly, in terms of ‘class’, Moscow Flyer beat Azertyuiop and Well Chief in the Tingle Creek when those horses were rated 178 and 176 (if I recall correctly). That would make them some….I dunno….a stone perhaps?….better animals than anything Best Mate ever had to tackle in any of his three Gold Cup’s (the routinely-disappointing-at-Cheltenham Beef Or Salmon apart).
For the record, Moscow Flyer raced over fences twice at 2m4f – both times at Aintree in the Melling Chase. He hacked-up from Isio the first time by 7L, and he hacked-up from Le Roi Miguel the second time by 16L, with the race reader describing the performances as “readily” and “impressive” respectively.
Over to you.
The mention of Arkle was simply trying to get it through to you what happens when a good 2 mile horse takes on a good 3 mile horse at a distance beyond 2 miles.
Kempton 3 miles is the easiest in the country and a good 2/1 mile horse has more getting the trip there than anywhere else
Best Mate who almost won the King George as a mere 6 year old had tons of speed and it was the speed he showed at Kempton and in races shorter than 3 miles, that started the doubter saying he wouldn’t get the gold cup trip.
He trotted up at Sandown over two and a half and as you know also won the King George the following year.
He was a high Class 3 miles horse who 3 Gold Cups over a distance too far for him in my opinion.
I have fallen into the trap you are falling into by looking at a horse and totally forgetting there is a huge difference between 2 and 2 1/2 miles when you are taking on the best, You his class will carry him through but it just doesn’t work like that. I have seen so many good horses try and go that extra 1/2 mile an come unstuck and it has hurt my pocket. My experience would tell me bet the stayer.
There is nothing in the Form book that tells me Moscow Flyer would get the trip against a top class horse. Best Mate you can be sure would get the trip and I would rather bet a horse I know gets the trip than one who might.
e.g. Someone mentions Kauto Star…..now stick him in the 2 mile four furlong race and your Moscow Flyer wouldn’t blow wind up his backside.
On good ground I’d have Moscow Flyer to beat Best Mate everytime over 2m 4f. Even on soft/heavy ground Best Mate would have struggled because he was never as good on that surface.
e.g. Someone mentions Kauto Star…..now stick him in the 2 mile four furlong race and your Moscow Flyer wouldn’t blow wind up his backside.
I think you’re seriously underating Moscow Flyer there. In my opinion Kauto Star would have to jump better than he does to have a hope of beating MF over 2m 4f.
Tell you what, FoF, lets ignore all other form displayed by Moscow Flyer and Best Mate, and concentrate solely on their 2m4f form over fences.
Moscow Flyer’s form is something I’ve already articulated, but to repeat it here – he beat Isio (a high 150’s handicapper at best) 7L “readily”, and beat Le Roi Miguel ( a high 150’s handicapper at best) 16L “impressively”.
Best Mate’s comparative form over the trip is a comprehensive defeat behind Jair Du Cochet, and an 8L win from the assuredly-not-top-class Douze Douze.
Now that we have restricted our view to the only times both actually raced over 2m4f over fences (outside of novice company), perhaps you can tell me which horse has displayed the better form?
As for the rest, I refer you to my second post on this thread, which disproves your swiss-cheese of a notion that there is a “huge difference between 2m and 2m4f”……………I suggest you take another look at the list I provided, and then see if this particular assertion of yours actually stands any forensic examination, because as far as I read it, top-class 2m chasers appear to have plenty of success over a half-mile further, and – again, contrary to your earlier assertion – history generally shows us that they nine times out of ten they would cuff the ar*se out of stayers dropping back to this intermediate trip.
You are of course welcome to your opinion on Best Mate, and I wish you well with it. Adieu, and I trust you have a profitable weekend.
You are also entitled to yours. However the comparison you make isn’t woth a pinch of salt. Neither horses form is worth a dogs breakfast over 2 miles 4 furlongs.
So lets settle for this. If they met over 2 miles at Cheltenham Moscow Flyer after a hard fought battle would show his superior speed and win by 2 lenths. If it was over 3 miles at Kempton Moscow would never get the trip in a million years stop to crawl at the 3rd last and come home beaten 62 lengths.
now take the 2 lengths from Cheltenham and the 62 lengths from kempton add them together and divided them by 2.5 miles at Aintree and you get 24.8 lengths victory for Best Mate. That’s a lot of distance for your horse to make up……..if you want maybe I can talk to the handicapper and get him to give matey a couple lbs extra and make it fair.
Geez Grasshopper don’t you know anything about racing?
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