Baracouda

[Celtic Pride]

After today’s race the Stayers Hurdle is looking like it is going to be a very interesting race at the Festival. With Bacchanal back in the race as well !!!! <br>I can’t wait.

[prince regent]

<br>bear

your having a laugh surely   there can be nothing so funny  as someone thinking  douman is as good  as vob or  in fact some of the other  top trianers  rimmell /walwyn.

ian

 if u were more careful in reading posts  u will note allthe trainers i mentioned started out  and were very succsseful as jumps trainers.

[bear]

It’s actually my point of view Prince Regent and I’m not as you seem to think, having a laugh, but as you clearly find it so funny – what is it people tend to say nowadays – Whatever!

[dario]

am i the only one who thinks DB actually won on merit today?!? to my eyes he beat him fair and square which he was entitled to on his best form. he doesnt run many races to that level but when he does ive always felt he was at least the equal of baracouda. wouldnt normally bet on him dur to his inconsistency but 14-1 was taking the p**s
.

[prince regent]

<br>ian<br>no tone intended  just commenting on your  comment earlier more careful in reading posts.

i was obviously referring to fulke not peter whomn as far as i can recall  didnt have any presence of note over jumps

  dont get me wrong  i dont say douman is a bad trainer   but he is not in the  vob leauge   nor  in the rimmell/walwyn league either.

   oh and as far as his record goes some of which makes good reading  he does have a catologue of employing inept jockeys   i recall the fool he put up on  the fellow   outridden i believ in one gold cup by  a pitman   now that must say it all

  and as  rossevelt used to say the buck stops here.

  the difference between   great  very good and just good  is often the amount of work that goes into the small detail   such as employing  a jockey more suitable to the way  races in this country are run as after the fiasco at newbury with mr cool  it was  to a lot of people except the doumans   quite clear as to the tactics that  pipe/mccoy would be using.

  pipe not a great trainer in my books  but a man  whom at least   gets down to every fine detail in a race

and the worse horse won becuase of it

note the difference

[Nev]

Just the one question,<br>would Baracouda have won had AP been on top ?

[robert99]

Prince Regent,

You seem to have contradicted yourself about great trainers getting down to detail, then not rating Martin Pipe who you then state wins races because he does get down into such details. In my book, MP and his disciples are the only real trainers of horses (in the real meaning of the word train) – the rest are at best just good stable managers, stuck in the 18th Century.

Doumen only brings his very best horse to UK and any jockey not familiar with the tracks and opposing horses is at a serious disadvantage – he appears to be inept at winning racing tactics but is more of a sportsman, which is what NH racing is supposed to be about.

Regards,<br>Robert<br>:cool:

[prince regent]

ian

 re financial backing  do u think doumans owners are poor  are they just above the poverty line???

for your info the marchellea de rochelasta (admit my spelling of her name is appalling)  is an extremely rich italian  in addition to  owning  originally first gold  and barracouda  she amongst others  owned  hard to figure a french derby winner trained by carver and ridden bu piggot<br>and of course that is without mentioning her family owned the great  ribot<br> so i doubt if lack of financial backing is one of his problems

not withstanding that  your  comments  re easterby  yes  a valid point  and of course i would accept that other trainers come into the argument  as well as the ones i mentioned  which i think only weakens the case that douman  is a "great trainer"

robert99

 i didnt say attention to  detail is the only  difference  but  just one part   albeit a major part

i have other reasons  for saying i dont think pipe is a great trainer as much as i respect his methods  to some extent at least

douman may or may not be a great sportsman   that is not what  the subject was about   and is a different  topic  (an interesting  one possibly)

[prince regent]

<br>hi ian

 sangster /magnier  came after   vob had won derbies with sir ivor  etc   grand nationals   gold cups  gloucest er hurdles   arc    king george& qe stakes  etc  not before

  vob   used  succesful  gambling  to get himself off the ground

  although his father did own a  small farm it was not particulalry succesful   and nor  was he either a rich man or a member of the moneyed classes

 i would be quite certain  fd comes from a richer background

  so i think its a bit oppotune  to claim vobs success (or at least the initial success that  made him a household name) was not due to his excellent skills  but only due to the financial clout of his owners

and whilst i admit i dont know the backgrounds of the other trainers   i wouldnt think  they are/were in such a different financial league  to douman  at their relative start up dates

so i dont think douman is held back by finacial restraints

 <br>  so now we  have discussed the financial side of their set ups

  can u or anyone  serioulsy say  that douman in any shape or form   be compared or even mentioned in the same breadth as vincent o brien

  can u really say he compares with  the rimmells/ f walwyns

  i wouldnt compare him with the hendersons nicholls pipes  of this world  

 hes a good  trainer  but not  a top class one   nor even an exceptional one just one of many good trainers

[Grimes]

Doumen’ll do for me. He’s already got two, or is it three, King George’s to his credit, (and a short-head second), and the likes of the races already won by Baracouda. He’s supposed to be a tricky customer, anyway. And was it really so surprising he was beaten over 2 1/2?

Whatever the merits or demerits of young Doumen as a jockey, – considering how our jocks are comprehensivey thrashed whenever they ride against the yanks, for instance – it seems amazing to me how quickly people rubbish foreign jockeys, for one reason or another.   And I’m amazed that trainers risk using our jocks in the Breeders Cup when they could have an American specialist.

The people who always do want to dramatise records, results, etc are the journalists.  Most strikers are happier if the team wins and keeps on winning while they’re in the side, rather than if they personally score. But try telling that to a journo. Always trying to make zummat out of nowt.

And what about Frankie Dettori. Do you think he gives a monkeys about winning the jockeys’ championship, when he can win so many of the great classic races – around the world, moreover, and year after year. Or agonise about accepting the Sheik’s retainer? When he might be missing out on mad dashes across the country to win more of the relatively piddling races?

Betting on Douze Douze improving his jumping enough to win the KG at Kempton, is admittedly buying a pig in a poke. But he looked to have the best motor of any horse I’ve seen since Arkle. Or am I talking tosh? I’m sure it wouldn’t be the first time.

[Smithy]

Quote: from Grimes on 6:45 pm on Dec. 22, 2002[br]And was it really so surprising he was beaten over 2 1/2?

It would have been had it not been for the fact it was 3m2f and he had won the race twice before!

[Grimes]

Seems I can’t get anything right, these days, Smithy. Thanks for letting me know. You could have been a lot more acid about it.

Also, Douze Douze is Macaire’s, not Doumen’s. And if First Gold were to run, I’d want to be on him as my first choice.

[prince regent]

<br>grimes

accepting u may have a point about using  home jockeys ie amercian jockeys in america etc and of course dettori is no doubt financially better of with sheik mos retainer than he would be   being champion jockey  or having a retainer with other yards

 but then   u strike  first we have comparisins of douman with vob  and to round the  thread off  douze douze  with arkle:o :o

   perhaps we could liken seebald with flyingbolt:o :o

[Grimes]

Good morrow both. Yes, of course, talking through my hat yet again. What I was actually talking about, though was just one element in the whole complex  that’s needed to make a top chaser, never mind an Arkle – I mean, of course, his engine).

Alhough I think that was what I actually said, to compare any horse of such relatively modest achievements and uncertain jumping ability, with Arkle, or anything remotely like him, in virtually any context, is to invite well-merited ridicule.  Sorry chaps. It’s the temperament. A touch of the toad of toad halls, don’t you know.

[Grimes]

Thanks, Ian. It’s kind of you and Tony25 to try and take some of the flak from me. But, unfortunately, spare the rod and spoil the Toad *is* the bottom line. And you mustn’t encourage me!

[Author]

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