- This topic has 35 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
With the betfair ‘Premium Tax’ seemingly spoiling the party for the big players the time is surely ripe for a challenger – or are betfair correct in judging that it is unlikely that another site would ever gain the necessary momentum (i.e. liquidity) to pose a significant risk?
Perhaps we should have all signed up to the 1% Green fellow when we had the opportunity?
Barry
I could be wrong here but is this not the way it works:
Betfair punter A backs a horse at say £100 @ 2.00 while Betfair punter B lays the horse at 2.00. Horse wins. Betfair punter A wins £95 and punter B loses £100.
Even if Betfair were a traditional bookmaker, their turnover would still only be £5 so the levy is based on this figure (stakes received of £200 LESS £195 paid back out) in the same manner as a traditional bookmaker’s levy is based on his NET turnover (stakes LESS payouts)
2007
8904 races inthe UK
lets say an average of 750000 grand matched in total per race
thats £6678000000 matched annually on UK racingBetfairs profits on UK racing 40 million
Betfairs profit on turnover 0.6%
i.e they give us a lot more back Barry.Perhaps we should have all signed up to the 1% Green fellow when we had the opportunity?
Well this three-figure small player has been trundling along quite contentedly on the 2% (until January I think) Purple for a few months now and find the (racing) markets pretty much replicate Betfair’s prices and over-round. The live market doesn’t have remotely the turnover of Betfair but the pre-live, for some reason, equals or sometimes exceeds theirs.
Has Betdaq’s turnover increased since the Premium Charge was introduced and has Betfair’s decreased?
I’d guess not significantly, if at all, in both cases.
I have yet to read – anywhere – a convincing theorem proving that all long-term winners will inevitably pay the Premium Charge, regardless of their betting/laying strategy, strike-rate, turnover, POT…what you will
You can´t ban laying as it´s the polar opposite of backing. To have a backer you need a layer be it Betfair, bookmaker, tote monopoly etc.
Martin, I think with a Tote monopoly (or any pool betting) there are no layers, or is another example of my senility?
Colin
Well SB – from a mathematical viewpoint your return (from a Tote bet) is made up of an aggregate of those who have effectively ‘layed’ your winner by backing something else.
maybe one day the tote will be owned by commercially aware folks , with terminals in pubs , clubs and shops , then we will join the rest of the world in secure funding of racing
Ricky
That’s been one of my hobby-horses for some years Ricky- the ubiquity of the Tote terminals in Oz needs to be replicated here. If we can get decent pools with small takeouts, it’ll be a genuine contender for the punting pound.
If the Tote could treble turnover by having these terminals everywhere, the takeout could be halved to, say 7.5% which would be an acceptable overround for most people.
Carv , I agree in full , if we had the same system as in Oz , funding would not be an issue
why cannot the racing bods take action to remedy ??
cheers
Ricky
The Tote wanted to reduce the takeout on some bets recently.The bookies told them they were not taking a smaller commision.This will keep the tote uncompetitive for most bets.
Back a losing horse on Betfair for £100,the 2% layer gets £98 and Betfair gets £2.
Back a losing £100 tote bet through Betfair and I would guess the split would be £92 Tote £8 Betfair.This is why betfair are pushing Tote bets.If you go to back a certainty always buy a return ticket.
If Betfair network traffic is representative of their turnover, then the levy are not going to get too much from them in the future.
2007
8904 races inthe UK
lets say an average of 750000 grand matched in total per race
thats £6678000000 matched annually on UK racingBetfairs profits on UK racing 40 million
Betfairs profit on turnover 0.6%
[b:2r3yx3oi]i.e they give us a lot more back Barry.[/b:2r3yx3oi]
They also take a lot more out.
If Betfair network traffic is representative of their turnover, then the levy are not going to get too much from them in the future.
.. hardly surprising Robert, the contempt they have shown their customers over the recent months has been staggering.
If any Government was to think of banning exchanges it surely would have been Labour.
However they have seen fit to reccomend to the Queen she should award Betfair The Queens Award To Industry not only one but twice.
What bookmakers have been awarded the same title?
If the exchanges were ever to be bannned where would the likes of Ladbrokes, Corals and Hills ever be back on the racecourse in a big way laying off money with on course bookmakers?
If high steet bookmakers were facing mega payouts like that did the day Dettori rode all the winners at Ascot?
Of course they would not they would hedge on the exchanges.
That must be the biggest gripe on course independants have suffered and that is of the likes of Ladbrokes no longer get the reps to run round the ring trying to shorten up horses.
(I remember the man in the sheepskin coat with the curly red hair on the current Ladbrokes ad as that was what he was on course to do)
If Andrew Black or others use money they have made to start other ventures good luck to them.
If Sir Richard Branson had stuck just with his record company he would not have created so many jobs for others and his old Virgin Record Stores now owned by Zazzi looks like to be following Woolworths.
English people have always had a bad trait in crabbing anyone who has done well but betting exchanges have made revolutionary changes to the way a lot of people bet.
Do we wish to go back to the days before Sir Freddy Laker took on the monopoly that B.A. held.
Do we wish to pay the sky high telephone prices BT once charged before all the other telephone companies led the way with free weekend calls etc etc.
I would rather rely on Betfair and Betdaq than put a few grand in a building society at current rates they offer in order to make some money!
Even if I lost it would take far longer on an exchange to lose than to have bets in betting shops.
If Betfair network traffic is representative of their turnover, then the levy are not going to get too much from them in the future.
Thank you Robert, goes some way to countering my assumption
that the introduction of Premium Charges has not affected turnoverUnlicensed laying is the problem with racing. Most racing enthusiasts are middle-aged or elderly, and, besides normal natural wastage, several have left the game because of the sickening amount of non-triers being laid on the Exchanges. It makes a mockery of traditional punting efforts.
The majority of young folk active on track are arbers and bookies’ mates who profit from betting on photos, stewards’ , etc. These techno racing guys and gals will be all for the Machine. They have to be; it’s their income.
None of this is healthy for racing. It cannot go on much longer without a downturn. Some have understood.
Indeed, even the major Exchange has realised that the original " person to person" game is over. Hence the introduction of sillier and sillier measures – including the " anti-sharp-brain" Premium Charge.
The Exchanges are no more permanent than General Motors. UK racing could have managed without them, but recovery from the damage done will be slow and messy, imo.
that the introduction of Premium Charges has not affected turnover
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.