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It must be galling for him despite his phenomenol success that no Aiden O’Brien trained-horse has ever received a rating of more than 130 in the International Classifications.
Even more galling when several have run better than 130 only to be demoted by the international panel. Most recently Galileo ran to ratings of 130+ on two occasions and to 129 on a third, but has been demoted by the panel for his efforts to the lower mark.
This seems unfair when the likes of Intikhab, Dubai Millennium and Sakhee were rated exclusively on their respective best runs and Fantastic Light was actually upgraded.
Do the Sheikhs exert some sort of unfair influence. Surely not…
Perhaps Hawk Wing can change all that though. The official handicapper believes he has the scope to. But "scope" is not a word in the dictionaries of some.
There must be 100’s and 100’s of horses that have the "scope" to improve (or so we are told). Some do, some don’t.
Hawk Wing seems pretty good and i’m sure we’ll hear stories about him over the Winter which will see his price for the Guineas fluctuate a half point.
…when Vincent was in charge at Ballydoyle. Now that’s a different matter.<br>
(Edited by Steve M at 5:05 pm on Jan. 17, 2002)
escorial
although we differ somewhat on what galileo beat  your remarks about what he beat  and benchmarks  can be directed at others  <br>for example  what did inthikab beat  in the queen anne  a grp 2 race not a lot really  and got  beaten by  a lower rated horse on his return
 why does the winning of a grp 3 diamond stakes (a shadow of its formerself)  and a  weak grp 2  rate so highly
 what exactly did  dubai millenium beat  behrens  (on the decline and well beaten  througout the rest of the seasoin)  sumitas  (never won a group race )  beat all (never won a group race)
 why doies the beating of 2 horses whom had not won above listed class rate so highly
 i am sure if u we were on the forum then  u would be tearing into the form :biggrin:
  a little more consistency  could  be called for  admittidly the person (s)  who made dm  or intikabs rating may not be the same  person (s) whom made this years ratings
not that i am saying galileo has been under rated but more consistency in the matter could be used.
interesting points made by the rp international handicapper on the last page in rp today re tiznows rating for example
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(Edited by prince regent at 4:59 pm on Jan. 17, 2002)
Yes Razeen the ratings (at least those of the IC) show that Sakhee achieved a better absolute rating than Galileo as a racehorse, irrespective of age. Therefore he was the better racehorse on these ratings.
Personally I believe that Galileo would have progressed beyond Sakhee’s rating at four. But obviously I cannot prove that. I also think it is a little unfair that the best rating that Galileo ran to has been downgraded to his third best rating, while Sakhee has been judged on his best.
There is obviously very little difference between Sakhee, Galileo and Fantastic Light whichever way you look at it.
The Worlds thinnest book
Overated Ballydoyle horses By SteveM
That means I don’t overrate Ballydoyle horses Razeen, as it’s the "thinnest book". I’m sure that’s what you mean’t though.
And remember, Postmark rates Galileo 1lb better than Sakhee on absolutes. All I’m saying is there is not much between them, as the evidence of the form illustrates.<br>
(Edited by Steve M at 5:29 pm on Jan. 17, 2002)
I was looking at page 10 of the IC review in today’s Post.
Older horses:
Sakhee 131<br>Fantastic Light 126<br>Hightori 120<br>etc.
But these were Topspeed figures. Apologies sb.
However the 3-y-o figures on page 8 were Postmark:
Galileo 132<br>Mozart 131<br>Milan 128<br>etc.
Hope this clears things up. The point remains there is not much in it.<br>
to prince regent
Sumitas never one a group race? :ohno:
He was a Group Race winner as a Two-Year-Old and he was a Classic winner (Group II) as a 3yo……as well he was placed in some Group I Races (as three year old and older horse)……and he is doing quit well in the USA now…….so do not say he won never a group race….:pimp:
Steve I dont think anyone in Ballydoyle could really complain that much after the year they’ve had.Champion 2year old 3year old and sprinter and miler(Johanessburg rated higher than any miler).<br> As for the 130’s club,well maybe it is a bit disappointing to see Galileo just out of the reckoning but after all the pleasure he gave to connections and public alike I dont think it is of that importance.<br> As for Hawk Wing- he could be anything.He looks like a horse who would improve for the winter break but these horses that look like they’ll improve from 2 to 3 dont always…….Karasta comes to mind.But you are true he does look a wonderful prospect…………..the time of his last run was exceptional.But there is another one very much in the mould of Galileo and Milan in terms of racing profile as a two year old……………and a couple of lightly raced colts and a filly but it really is a bit early until they start back to decent work.
I think Milan will give sakhee a run for his money this year. He was ridden strangely in the arc and flew home. He doesn’t have to improve much.
anybody know el gran senor’s rating as a 3yo?
Sakhee will be tough to beat alright but if he can improve as much from 3-4 why cant Milan.Suny Bay I take it despite the fact he ran Fantastic Light to half a lenght (despite the fact you said he would do terrible on the fast ground) when meeting trouble in running you still dont think he is anything other than a stayer?nice to see he is being kept in training surely you have to agree with that?
Thats a fair enough response I guess. Would like to see Dubai Destination again before passing judgement on him.
Good to hear it Aidan. I backed him again for the Guineas today at 9/2 with Hills.
Razeen, Galileo also ran to Postmark ratings of 132 twice (at Ascot and Leopardstown) as well as the 129 he achieved in the Irish Derby.
For these three runs he was given an Official Rating of 130 (just 3lb different from Sakhee’s rating judged on his best run), which has been downgraded to 129 by the IC.
It is on the strength of Sakhee’s Arc run that he is rated better than Galileo or Fantastic Light. I believe he just about deserves to shade it for this, but it is worth pointing out that the runner up in the Arc ran to just 120, which would not normally be good enough to be placed.
It is also a little unfair that Galileo has not been judged on his overall better level of performance than 129 suggests.
I believe 131 would have been a fair reflection of Galileo’s achievements, with Point Given on the same, or perhaps a pound higher.
Sakhee is very fortunate that he will not come up against either of these next season.
<br>
"That Peintre Celebre only ran one good race too Steve! How can he be better rated than Galileo? "
I nearly choked on my dinner – was that his romp in the French Derby or his destruction of Pilsudski in the Arc. Galileo was an above-average Derby winner but surely not comparable with PC. Watch that 1997 Arc again Razeen and try comparing it to Galileo’s Derby.;)
Pentre Celebre indeed ran to an easily higher rating (136+) than Galileo or Sakhee. He was one of the great racehorses and should be rated above either of these. He was a relatively unexposed horse and ran a brilliant race in the Arc, which was his best performance. Only Dancing Brave, Montjeu and El Condor Pasa recorded higher/equal ratings in the race in recent times (Helissio was up there too).
I am also saying that Sakhee (133) deserves to be top-rated this season on the stength of his Arc run.
But I also believe that it is a little unfair not to rate Galileo on his King George run, which was officially rated (never mind Postmark) at 130. Galileo’s rating has since been downgrade to 129 by the IC. This was due to Fantastc Light gaining revenge on him in the Irish Champion Stakes. But most of us know that Galileo’s real trip was 12f rather than 10f.
Therefore Galileo has not been rated on his best run (i.e. The King George), whereas PC and Sakhee were.
I am not saying it is wrong to rate a horse on his best performance. But there seems no reason not to be consistent about this for Galileo.
Razeen’s single minded defence of Sakhee (when Sakhee doesn’t in fact need defending), to the exclusion of all others, refusing to believe that Galileo or Fantastic Light were very close to him in terms of ability is naive in the extreme.
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