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Beating a subsequent runaway Lockinge winner is no mean feat, even if Hawk Wing didn’t stay 1m4f in a horsebox.
But can a horse who (allegedly – he did win an Irish Derby) needs to go left-handed be, by definition, “great?”
For me the true greats overcome adverse conditions – like Frankel comfortably beating quality mudlark Cirrus Des Aigles on desperate ground at Ascot.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I remember Walter on Shergar smashing ride, but what stood out for me was the Northern Correspondents selection tipping up a 200/1 shot because he was a Northern horse, Quality.
Wasn’t “Quality” the AOB trained and owned 50/1 winner of the Oaks, Troy?
btw, imo Troy and Slip Anchor should also be regarded as Epsom greats; only at Epsom mind.
Value Is EverythingIt could be argued High Chapparral ran to more variables and risked more than Frankel Ian. I’m not suggesting he is as good as Frankel, of course not. But as you used Frankel as an example. He never left his home country for a start, High Chapparral was a dual Breeders Cup winner.
I wouldn’t crab Frankels form for connections campaigning him relatively conservatively, and I wouldn’t crab High Chap for preferring going left handed.
BUY THE SUN
High Chapperal “risked” a massive amount more than Frankel, HC had to risk so much because he was not in Frankel’s league. Having to travel for Group 1 winning opportunities.
Frankel had a temperamental flaw in his early days, that of wanting to get on with things. Difficult to hold back… And this flaw often goes with not travelling well which is a possible reason why Sir Henry kept him in Britain.
However, the reason for Frankel staying at home is probably more to do with his trainer’s health rather than the horse.
Value Is EverythingThe title of this thread makes me feel very old. Shergar was impressive when winning and Sea Bird was VERY impressive. The Derby that sticks in my mind though was Sir Ivor’s a stunning acceleration in the last furlong (I’d have to check that, memory isn’t what it was).
HC did not “have to travel for Group 1 winning opportunities”. Thats nonsense. He was top class at home too.
BUY THE SUN
High Chaparral was of course top class, TTC. But there is “top class” and then there is one recognised by most experts as the best horse EVER. Frankel’s Timeform Rating was 17 lbs higher than HC. There may be an arguement that HC was a bit better than 130 because some might say he only did enough, but not 17 lbs better.
What I mean by “having to travel”, is:
High Chaparral twice proved not good enough to win an Arc and so as to finish the season on a win and/or for the money they chose to go to the USA.Value Is EverythingYou are arguing with yourself mate. I’ve already stated HC patently isn’t as good as Frankel, t’was Ian who brought Frankel in to the debate.
Merely pointed out that its unfair crabbing HC for not being as good right handed. Perhaps Frankel would not have been as good racing outside his home country? Who knows?
BUY THE SUN
Oh TTC,
It was you who didn’t like me saying HC had to travel. I am merely explaining that had he been as good as Frankel there would be no need to travel.Value Is EverythingGive over. As if the reason High Chapparal travelled out of Ireland was because he had to as he “wasn’t good enough”. As if the reason Frankel didn’t travel, was because he “was good enough”. Its nothing to do with talent. Its sporting ambition. Did Galieleo run in the BC Classic because he wasn’t good enough over here so had to travel? Giants Causeway? Sakhee? Dayjur? Its a daft point you make imo.
Frankel was the best. But he was campaigned unadventurously. If he was running in any other country, you’d probably be saying “that horse has to prove it over here”, in typical little-englander fashion.
BUY THE SUN
Third time you’ve recently insulted / accused me of something and each time I’ve been generous in not responding in kind, TTC. Be careful.
I was obviously on about travelling to the States, not from Ireland to Britain or France.
In reality most British trained horses don’t travel to Ireland because of the number of Group 1 races in Britain compared to Ireland means they don’t need to. Conversely Group 1 Irish horses need to come to Britain or France because there are so few opportunities in Ireland. If it was the other way around Irish horses would stay in Ireland and British horses would be frequent visitors to Ireland. Nothing “little-englander” about it, just circumstances – the Group 1 pattern.
Up until August of his final year Frankel was a miler. Ireland should but unfortunately does not have an all aged Group 1 mile race. Therefore the only Group 1 race Frankel could have gone over for is the 2012 Irish Champion Stakes – just one race in one year. Are you really criticising a horse for not travelling over for one race? A race at a time he was being prepared for his swan song.
I have already stated that the reason for Frankel staying at home in Britain was possibly in his early days due to temperament, of not being a good traveller. But that is only a possibility… imo By far the most likely reason is because his trainer wanted to be with Frankel and unfortunately Sir Henry was in the latter stages of cancer. I remember people being surprised to see Sir Henry at York, let alone Leopardstown, France or USA. Am no doctor but travelling could surely have killed the trainer?
Champion Stakes came just 13 days after a hard race in the Arc. With no alternative middle distance Group 1 High Chaparral having to travel for his best opportunity of getting another Group 1 – Breeders Cup in the USA with the added bonus of a lot more money than staying at home (in Europe) for the Champion Stakes. Am not criticising the decision, it was an obvious one for HC.
Value Is EverythingBe careful indeed! Get off your pedestal mate, back in to your pram, and stop being so touchy.
If I think you are wrong I’ll tell you, as I’d expect folk to do with me. I’m wrong plenty, but I reckon you are wrong here. Its a forum of opinions.
BUY THE SUN
You and the vast majority of good judges all around the world recognise Frankel as the best ever. Frankel went for the races connections wanted, those races were not closed. There was no stopping anyone from taking him on. However, can you please tell me which top class racehorses did not take him on? Am I not right in saying Frankel beat the most Group 1 horses – at least in the Northern hemisphere? Excelebration and Canford Cliffs were exceptional talents but neither could get near Frankel. Farhh, St Nicholas Abbey, Twice Over, Cirrus Des Aigles, Nathaniel, all bloody good in their own right but all beaten out of sight. Shame they didn’t choose to take on Frankel with Moonlight Cloud, So You Think or Camelot, but they had the opportunity and bottled it.
Value Is EverythingThe point I disagree with is you stating horses run over-seas, because they need to due to being a lower level than horses whom do not. You’ve said thats what you think, I think thats a complete load of nonsense.
Agree to disagree perhaps.
BUY THE SUN
I welcome debate TTC, and I am wrong plenty of times, but please just don’t be offensive when you’re claiming I am wrong… and we’ll get on fine
.Value Is Everything
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