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2012 Arkle

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Viewing 17 posts - 52 through 68 (of 624 total)
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  • #382120
    Avatar photocormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 9230

    Hurdygurdyman and Zarkava – stop acting like three year olds in a playground.

    #382146
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6114

    Zarkava and HGM exchanges beginning to look like transcripts of the Nixon Tapes :)

    #382481
    Avatar photoJAMIEDB9007
    Participant
    • Total Posts 340

    What is it with people when they bang on about horses folding up the Cheltenham Hill?
    Sprinter Sacre was tanking along around the bend, and pretty much put all four feet through the last hurdle in a fast run race. He may not have won, but if he didn’t make that mistake you can’t say he just emptied out coming up the hill. It’s bound to knock any momentum out of any horse! It’s about jumping better at speed. If he had been ridden differently or held up, the outcome might have been different AGAIN like so many other races.
    I have nothing against Peddlars Cross, Al Ferof, or any other horse for that matter, but to accuse a horse of being better on a flat track, emptying out or plain not getting home, seriously guys, watch the race again, and tell me who looked the classiest horse on the day before walking through the last flight. And yeah, is bred to jump a fence and anything gained along the way last year was simply a bonus.
    If it jumps well come March, only Peddlars Cross will have the speed to keep up with him.

    #382565
    Avatar photoSteeplechasing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6114

    What is it with people when they bang on about horses folding up the Cheltenham Hill?
    Sprinter Sacre was tanking along around the bend, and pretty much put all four feet through the last hurdle in a fast run race. He may not have won, but if he didn’t make that mistake you can’t say he just emptied out coming up the hill. It’s bound to knock any momentum out of any horse! It’s about jumping better at speed. If he had been ridden differently or held up, the outcome might have been different AGAIN like so many other races.
    I have nothing against Peddlars Cross, Al Ferof, or any other horse for that matter, but to accuse a horse of being better on a flat track, emptying out or plain not getting home, seriously guys, watch the race again, and tell me who looked the classiest horse on the day before walking through the last flight. And yeah, is bred to jump a fence and anything gained along the way last year was simply a bonus.
    If it jumps well come March, only Peddlars Cross will have the speed to keep up with him.

    You might well be right with SS but there’s no question in my mind the hill plays a huge part in deciding race results. Ask Roudoudou Ville’s trainer and so many others it would take years to research.

    With the hill, some have the heart but not the stamina; some have the stamina but not the heart.

    #382614
    Avatar photoJAMIEDB9007
    Participant
    • Total Posts 340

    I totally agree with your comment about some horses getting caught out up the hill…I was just pointing out I don’t think SS did empty out, I think it was more to do with the last flight blunder hindering his momentum…
    Much to look forward to come March…

    #382632
    Avatar photoMarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2936

    I remember many banging on about Harchibald and the hill when the problem was Carberry.
    Binocular in the Supreme looks one paced up the hill then wins the Champion quickening up it.

    I think last years Supreme was a good race, and Sprinter Sacre should reverse form in the Arkle with Al Ferof.

    I like Peddlers Cross ( i think Oscar is a brilliant sire and used to make bundles of money backing his horses in bumpers etc before he became a noted sire ) but still prefer the Henderson horse over fences

    #382633
    Limestone Lad
    Member
    • Total Posts 13

    Fortunately for us too much is made out of ‘getting up the hill’ and better value is to be had as a result. The Supreme is a race that comes early in the lives of these horses, and to judge their stamina purely based on that one race, in top class opposition when they are still on the weak side, is daft. Especially when these horses have still managed to make the frame.

    At the prices however I don’t think anything sticks out as great value, none of the protagonists have met top class opposition and are all unbeaten. For Non Stop is totally unexposed over fences and it’ll be interesting to see how he fares next time out, I’m not sure he was flattered behind Al Ferof as many seem to think. Had he won the race by 15+ lengths he would be far more prominent in the antepost markets, but because Al Ferof was alongside, a neck better, he’s a huge price for both the Jewson and Arkle.

    #382644
    Avatar photoMarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2936

    Fortunately for us too much is made out of ‘getting up the hill’ and better value is to be had as a result. The Supreme is a race that comes early in the lives of these horses, and to judge their stamina purely based on that one race, in top class opposition when they are still on the weak side, is daft. Especially when these horses have still managed to make the frame.

    At the prices however I don’t think anything sticks out as great value, none of the protagonists have met top class opposition and are all unbeaten. For Non Stop is totally unexposed over fences and it’ll be interesting to see how he fares next time out, I’m not sure he was flattered behind Al Ferof as many seem to think. Had he won the race by 15+ lengths he would be far more prominent in the antepost markets, but because Al Ferof was alongside, a neck better, he’s a huge price for both the Jewson and Arkle.

    The market will change several times yet. Days Hotel is still underrated, and there are others from the top English stables who have yet to race. Well Chief won the Arkle and i don’t think he jumped a fence in public til February

    #382668
    Avatar photoEuro
    Member
    • Total Posts 403

    For Non Stop is totally unexposed over fences and it’ll be interesting to see how he fares next time out, I’m not sure he was flattered behind Al Ferof as many seem to think. Had he won the race by 15+ lengths he would be far more prominent in the antepost markets, but because Al Ferof was alongside, a neck better, he’s a huge price for both the Jewson and Arkle.

    I can’t help thinking that without a Festival win in his career thus far (that Maljimar defeat still gives me nightmares) Nick will surely be tempted to go for the easier option of the Jewson. Especially is Peddlers, SS and Al all remain unbeaten.

    #382778
    elgransenor1
    Member
    • Total Posts 625

    for me the horses with the best hurdles form, peddlers cross and al ferof, make the market for sprinter sacre.

    of the three of them he really looks like a chaser, and can jump like one. It seems to me that mccain isn’t that confident of peddlers cross ability to jump around grade one tracks in competitive races over fences, otherwise why does he keep putting him in tin-pot races?

    for example this weekend he’s running him at haydock, in a very uncompetitive race. just to build his confidence. why not run him in the ascot novice chase tomorrow, which actually looks like a decent contest? no doubt he’ll go off at 1-5 at haydock and learn about as much as he would do in a schooling round.

    I don’t like the way he jumps so low, so little daylight at his fences. I feel he’ll clout one or two at cheltenham, as sprinter sacre is bound to put pressure on his jumping.

    as for al ferof, he was desperately unimpressive last time and I couldn’t have him with stolen money.

    time and time again people fall into the trap of thinking its all about hurdles form, when it comes to novice chasing, when history tells us its quite a different game altogether.

    #382822
    Avatar photoMarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2936

    for me the horses with the best hurdles form, peddlers cross and al ferof, make the market for sprinter sacre.

    of the three of them he really looks like a chaser, and can jump like one. It seems to me that mccain isn’t that confident of peddlers cross ability to jump around grade one tracks in competitive races over fences, otherwise why does he keep putting him in tin-pot races?

    for example this weekend he’s running him at haydock, in a very uncompetitive race. just to build his confidence. why not run him in the ascot novice chase tomorrow, which actually looks like a decent contest? no doubt he’ll go off at 1-5 at haydock and learn about as much as he would do in a schooling round.

    I don’t like the way he jumps so low, so little daylight at his fences. I feel he’ll clout one or two at cheltenham, as sprinter sacre is bound to put pressure on his jumping.

    as for al ferof, he was desperately unimpressive last time and I couldn’t have him with stolen money.

    time and time again people fall into the trap of thinking its all about hurdles form, when it comes to novice chasing, when history tells us its quite a different game altogether.

    Voy Por Ustedes had a prep like this before he won, but that wasn’t as good a renewal and he received weight.

    Some of the Sprinter Sacre’s jumps at Doncaster – well they’ll be worth a couple of lengths at Cheltenham.

    #382828
    Avatar photoHurdygurdyman
    Member
    • Total Posts 1533

    Sir Ken-Sizing Europe can anyone fill in the gaps and name the true Champion Hurdle horses who have won an Arkle?

    One has to realize the replacement of hurdles with fences is a massive change to a horse. The pace, the physicality, the breathing everything changes and that’s why horses who were much superior to others over hurdle don’t always beat horses who were their inferiors.

    Do not assume being a good hurdler is any more than a guide it does not assure you will become a great 2 mile chaser or this page would be full of names.

    #382830
    stilvi
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5228

    And why have so few Champion Hurdlers seemingly not made the transition from hurdles to fences – the best have either stayed over hurdles or attempted fences at a very late stage – I think I remember Comedy Of Errors having a go at age 10.

    Yes, the likes of Sprinter Sacre and Al Ferof might close the gap on Peddlers Cross but there is no evidence so far to suggest they have done.

    #382855
    J17star
    Member
    • Total Posts 317

    for me the horses with the best hurdles form, peddlers cross and al ferof, make the market for sprinter sacre.

    of the three of them he really looks like a chaser, and can jump like one. It seems to me that mccain isn’t that confident of peddlers cross ability to jump around grade one tracks in competitive races over fences, otherwise why does he keep putting him in tin-pot races?

    for example this weekend he’s running him at haydock, in a very uncompetitive race. just to build his confidence. why not run him in the ascot novice chase tomorrow, which actually looks like a decent contest? no doubt he’ll go off at 1-5 at haydock and learn about as much as he would do in a schooling round.

    I don’t like the way he jumps so low, so little daylight at his fences. I feel he’ll clout one or two at cheltenham, as sprinter sacre is bound to put pressure on his jumping.

    as for al ferof, he was desperately unimpressive last time and I couldn’t have him with stolen money.

    time and time again people fall into the trap of thinking its all about hurdles form, when it comes to novice chasing, when history tells us its quite a different game altogether.

    Voy Por Ustedes had a prep like this before he won, but that wasn’t as good a renewal and he received weight.

    Some of the Sprinter Sacre’s jumps at Doncaster – well they’ll be worth a couple of lengths at Cheltenham.

    Hindsight. At the time, Voy Por Ustedes won what was considered to be one of the hottest arkles in a long time. Racing Demon, Missed That, Monets Garden, Foreman amongs others at the time were all very highly thought of. Turns out it wasn’t that strong, but at the time it was probably considered as strong as this years renewal.

    Pedderls Cross has impressed me so far, was the best hurdler and looks like fences should suit. However, i wouldn’t say the others don’t have a chance of improving past him. The other 2 market principles have no direct form linking to Peddlers Cross, nor did they ever run outside Novice company as Hurdlers. Im sure if they had stayed over hurdles this year, they would have won some of the easy pre-christmas champion hurdle trials in a canter.

    I have no doubt in my mind Sprinter Sacre is a better horse than Al Ferof. He travelled like the best horse in the Supreme despite still pulling, and simply got tired and didn’t last. He was the least experienced of those in the Supreme and has the most scope for fences. Now he still needs to prove he can get up the hill, but i think he has a far better engine than Al Ferof and an extra year surely will help his chances of staying the 2M up the hill.

    #382921
    Avatar photoMarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2936

    for me the horses with the best hurdles form, peddlers cross and al ferof, make the market for sprinter sacre.

    of the three of them he really looks like a chaser, and can jump like one. It seems to me that mccain isn’t that confident of peddlers cross ability to jump around grade one tracks in competitive races over fences, otherwise why does he keep putting him in tin-pot races?

    for example this weekend he’s running him at haydock, in a very uncompetitive race. just to build his confidence. why not run him in the ascot novice chase tomorrow, which actually looks like a decent contest? no doubt he’ll go off at 1-5 at haydock and learn about as much as he would do in a schooling round.

    I don’t like the way he jumps so low, so little daylight at his fences. I feel he’ll clout one or two at cheltenham, as sprinter sacre is bound to put pressure on his jumping.

    as for al ferof, he was desperately unimpressive last time and I couldn’t have him with stolen money.

    time and time again people fall into the trap of thinking its all about hurdles form, when it comes to novice chasing, when history tells us its quite a different game altogether.

    Voy Por Ustedes had a prep like this before he won, but that wasn’t as good a renewal and he received weight.

    Some of the Sprinter Sacre’s jumps at Doncaster – well they’ll be worth a couple of lengths at Cheltenham.

    Hindsight. At the time, Voy Por Ustedes won what was considered to be one of the hottest arkles in a long time. Racing Demon, Missed That, Monets Garden, Foreman amongs others at the time were all very highly thought of. Turns out it wasn’t that strong, but at the time it was probably considered as strong as this years renewal.

    What’s hindsight go to do with it ? I’m just pointing out that the race has been won by a horse with a ‘ quiet ‘ prep. Well Chief is another example. Strange race was 2004.

    #382999
    J17star
    Member
    • Total Posts 317

    What’s hindsight go to do with it ? I’m just pointing out that the race has been won by a horse with a ‘ quiet ‘ prep. Well Chief is another example. Strange race was 2004.

    Voy Por Ustedes won what is one of the most recognised trial races for the Arkle. Hardly quiet. Rather there were others perhaps fancied more, but as i said already, there were so many considered contenders that year so he got lost in the shuffle a little bit.

    #383026
    Avatar photoMarkTT
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2936

    What’s hindsight go to do with it ? I’m just pointing out that the race has been won by a horse with a ‘ quiet ‘ prep. Well Chief is another example. Strange race was 2004.

    Voy Por Ustedes won what is one of the most recognised trial races for the Arkle. Hardly quiet. Rather there were others perhaps fancied more, but as i said already, there were so many considered contenders that year so he got lost in the shuffle a little bit.

    Captain Chris – Cheltenham, Chepstow, Newbury, Sandown, Kempton
    Sizing Europe – Punchestown, Leopardstown
    Forpadydeplasterer – Fairyhouse, Punchestown, Leopardstown
    Tidal Bay – Aintree, Cheltenham , Doncaster
    Contraband – Aintree, Cheltenham, Sandown

    That’s what i mean by quiet, and that thus far, PC has had a similar prep, shying from the bigger tracks and tougher opposition.

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