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2010 Fixtue List

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  • #12153
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3327

    Some pertinent comment on the suicide note issued this week by the BHA from Alan Lee in the Times:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ … 725150.ece

    AP

    #240694
    gumshield
    Member
    • Total Posts 119

    Excellent article, a balance of passion and reason.

    Thanks for the link, Alan.

    #240695
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4825

    He makes some good points, but don’t really know where he gets all his figures from. Seems to me like there is plenty of demand for all the fixtures that are put on at the moment. 350 – 400 runners a day (430 today), every day during the evening meeting season and there is literally no let up on those numbers day in day out. Attendance seems to be holding up as well. Very surprising giving the current state of everything but facts none the less.

    Would like to see an article from Lee educating punters about the non runner scandal, reduced place term rip offs, bookies who wont let you have a bet, SP overround etc.. Its only when betting shop punters start hitting the bottom line of these crooks that anything positive will happen from their total control of the sport. You have the platform Mr Lee, use it.

    Interesting to see how Coward and Roy have moved away from their alternative funding stance recently. Have they now accepted there is no standing up to Goliath?

    #240705
    % MAN
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5104

    Absolutely brilliant article – I could not have put it better myself.

    Cav – how many of today’s 430 runners should not be there though – what % are just dross just running for the bookmakers?

    #240708
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    Does the BHA conduct any analysis of which race types/courses/time of meeting attract too many/not enough runners?

    #240716
    Prufrock
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2081

    Perhaps the most telling aspect of the article is the response from Rob Hughes, presumably the one who chairs the quango that is the HBLB.

    Lee may not be an economist, but he presumably knows the basics about supply and demand.

    It is not apparent that Hughes, with his painfully simplistic comment, does.

    #240730
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4825

    Cav – how many of today’s 430 runners should not be there though

    Whose to say whether they should be there or not Paul? The courses who facilitate them, the trainers and staff who look after them, the owners who invest in them, the punters who bet on them would all disagree with you.

    Its very convenient to say too many crap horses are turning punters away from the sport. I’d say watering, dodgy going reports, rule 4 rip offs, racings supreme commitment to mediocrity when it comes to the people it employs, horse stoppers being slapped on the wrist, formbook inaccuracy, SP’s, etc..etc…etc.. have a lot more to do with it, all of which will still be there regardless of what class of racing we watch everyday.

    Lee knows very well the 20 million quid drop in levy is down to the highroller(s) packing it in, money which was only ever going to be short term anyway. As usual in racing he wont name names when it comes to his opinions on who he thinks is responsible

    It shames many significant racing figures that they clung to the discredited Levy even when commercial alternatives were being sought.

    Crocodile tears is all, I’m sure he’s well paid for them.

    #240754
    % MAN
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5104

    Cav – how many of today’s 430 runners should not be there though

    Whose to say whether they should be there or not Paul? The courses who facilitate them, the trainers and staff who look after them, the owners who invest in them, the punters who bet on them would all disagree with you.

    Not exactly an unbiased constituency that you mention there Cav.

    They all need to face the economic realities of life.

    As far as I am concened unless an alternate means of funding is found then the number of fixtures should be related to Levy funding.

    Levy funding for the following year should be agreed by 1st June, with fixture allocation commencing a week later.

    If the levy falls by 10% after inflation then the number of fixtures decreases by 10%, if the levy increases by 5% the number of fixtures increase by 5%.

    If it puts trainers / racecourses out of business then tough – that’s life. If there are too many horses the poorer ones will be balloted out and longer term it should lead to a much needed cut in the horse population.

    With regards punters most will bet on anything and most don’t give a toss what quality the race is – why do you think cartoon racing is so popular?
    Most don’t even care about racing – all they care about is their pockets.

    Its very convenient to say too many crap horses are turning punters away from the sport. I’d say watering, dodgy going reports, rule 4 rip offs, racings supreme commitment to mediocrity when it comes to the people it employs, horse stoppers being slapped on the wrist, formbook inaccuracy, SP’s, etc..etc…etc.. have a lot more to do with it, all of which will still be there regardless of what class of racing we watch everyday.

    We are disillusioned aren’t we? I agree with you on some of the points you make namely watering, going reports. The others I would disagree.

    There has to be a Rule 4 system and whilst not perfect we have seen the problems involved in trying to find a better system.

    It is very unfair to tar all of racings administrators with the same brush. Whilst there are areas for improvement those running racing now are far more professional than those running racing, twenty, even ten years ago.

    The issue of penalties is being looked at – not before time.

    The formbook is written by humans and is subjective – it should not be relied on to be 100% accurate anyone who does not rely only on the evidence of their own eyes cannot complain.

    At the end of the day SP’s depend on market forces – if you don’t like them don’t take them!!

    There is, of course, a much fairer system and that would be a Tote monopoly. No more whinging about SP’s. No more quibbling about e/w terms. All profits from the pool going back into racing.

    #240761
    Venusian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1665

    An excellent article by Alan Lee, absolutely spot on, as I commented on the Times website. (If I’m allowed to blow my own trumpet, my reply got more recommendations than Rob Hughes’s, and so it should).

    It seems that the powers that be know they’re doing the wrong thing, but can’t seem to stop themselves.

    One thing that newspapers could do to help them in this regard would be to only publish 2 cards a day on weekdays.

    It wouldn’t exactly

    reduce

    the number of fixtures, but it would at least

    seem

    like it – a whole page of measningless cards is a big turn-off for readers, I just tend to turn the page, and I’m a fan for goodness’ sake!

    #240770
    AndyRAC
    Participant
    • Total Posts 505

    Whilst it doesn’t make it right – it is the way of all sport nowadays. Even more fixtures, matches, etc
    Remember the saying, ‘Less is more’.

    #240784
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4825

    They all need to face the economic realities of life.

    I’d rather have those realities dictated by actual supply and demand. Both seem well in balance at this moment in time. Lee talks about trainers being imperilled. Many certainly will be if you cull the racehorse population despite the demand being there as it is now. As for owners being driven away by cuts in prizemoney , show me 5 since 2000 who ever expected winnings to fund a seasons training. He mentions owners going bankrupt, thats got feck all to do with the levy or prizemoney.

    With regards punters most will bet on anything and most don’t give a toss what quality the race is – why do you think cartoon racing is so popular?
    Most don’t even care about racing – all they care about is their pockets.

    True, so why all the hoo ha about levy return being related to class of racehorse in the first place?

    If the levy falls by 10% after inflation then the number of fixtures decreases by 10%, if the levy increases by 5% the number of fixtures increase by 5%.

    Even if you did that you’d still be in the position of needing to win 4 of 5 races a season to cover costs, not much difference from the current situation.

    There has to be a Rule 4 system and whilst not perfect we have seen the problems involved in trying to find a better system.

    True and I think it works ok most of the time, its the double whammy of non runner induced reduced place terms that really winds me up.

    It is very unfair to tar all of racings administrators with the same brush. Whilst there are areas for improvement those running racing now are far more professional than those running racing, twenty, even ten years ago.

    A bit over the top from me but there are still way too many people in racing who do not want to face up the present day realities imo.

    The formbook is written by humans and is subjective – it should not be relied on to be 100% accurate anyone who does not rely only on the evidence of their own eyes cannot complain.

    Again fair point, perhaps the word "inconsistencies" would have been a better description. The information contained within seems to be totally at the whim of the Raceform rep on the day. How difficulty would it be for them to come up with a standardised format? Too difficult it seems.

    At the end of the day SP’s depend on market forces – if you don’t like them don’t take them!!

    I dont! Many do, hence the decreasing levy returns imo.

    There is, of course, a much fairer system and that would be a Tote monopoly. No more whinging about SP’s. No more quibbling about e/w terms. All profits from the pool going back into racing.

    No argument there. The way it should have been done, but too late now. Better to make the best of the current situation, instead of crying about a "calamitous" 0.86% increase in next years fixture list.

    A quick count gives me 52 class C or better races between last Saturday and tomorrow, more than enough for the connoisseurs you’d have thought. Its a bit like Sky Digital, you dont have to watch it all but its nice to have the choice.

    I guarantee you if we had 6 Group 1 races a day some would still find something to complain about.

    #240788
    % MAN
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5104

    I’d rather have those realities dictated by actual supply and demand. Both seem well in balance at this moment in time. Lee talks about trainers being imperilled. Many certainly will be if you cull the racehorse population despite the demand being there as it is now. As for owners being driven away by cuts in prizemoney , show me 5 since 2000 who ever expected winnings to fund a seasons training. He mentions owners going bankrupt, thats got feck all to do with the levy or prizemoney.

    I don’t think Alan meant owners were going bankrupt because of their involvement in racing – I think he means many are going bankrupt due to the recession and that will drive them away from racing.

    If that happens, along with owners walking away because of the recession,then trainers will be imperriled.

    The formbook is written by humans and is subjective – it should not be relied on to be 100% accurate anyone who does not rely only on the evidence of their own eyes cannot complain.

    Again fair point, perhaps the word "inconsistencies" would have been a better description. The information contained within seems to be totally at the whim of the Raceform rep on the day. How difficulty would it be for them to come up with a standardised format? Too difficult it seems.

    I have to be careful what I say here as I do work with the race readers most days. Let’s just say when I do look at the formbook nowadays I do check to see who the race reader was before deciding how much credence I give the analysis.

    A quick count gives me 52 class C or better races between last Saturday and tomorrow, more than enough for the connoisseurs you’d have thought. Its a bit like Sky Digital, you dont have to watch it all but its nice to have the choice.

    I guarantee you if we had 6 Group 1 races a day some would still find something to complain about.

    But too much racing will dilute the product as a whole. Rather than spread £x million from the levy over 1,503 meetings why not spraed the same amount across 1,000 meetings and increase prize money across the board. Bring in a blank day each week, say Mondays, the number of meetings per day would not be too badly impacted. Also would it not be better to have three good quality meetings on a Saturday as opposed to one or two good plus three moderate meetings?

    #240820
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 29189

    Excellant thread this, some thought provoking arguements.

    Particularly like Paul’s points, agree with everything he’s said, all bar the Tote monopoly. That would be a disaster. A "pro gamber" I know told me that the Tote could have a monopoly if they wished. Just bet to 1% per runner or even less, then no on-course bookie would be able to survive long term. Off-course ones would struggle too. Then once a monopoly is established raise the percentages.

    There is too much racing and too much poor racing in particular. There’s an arguement to suggest there’s too many group 1’s too. With trainers being able to avoid each other, their best horses going for easier options.

    Also agree with Venusian’s point. Normal newspapers should only show the best racing each day. Anyone interested in the rest can buy the Racing Post. This would give more column inches to the sport of racing in the tabloids, hopefully creating interest.

    There should be less racing on the very big days. However, we should also remember the public want to go racing at weekends.

    Value Is Everything
    #240822
    betlarge
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2789

    There is too much racing

    Yes, and too much champagne and far too many beautiful women…

    Mike

    #240835
    runandskip
    Member
    • Total Posts 412

    oh dear, it seems the vast amount of racing has affected the dail mail. it has the king george still sponserd by de beers and that ask won the coranation stakes lol.
    as for 2010 im disapointed that noting has come of the positive points of the ill-fated sovereighn series ie: moving the international etc to a saturday.
    also that nothing has come of the idea of moving the jumps finale.
    also not the becher chase sunday remains despite no longer being televised.

    #240841
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4825

    Yes, and too much champagne and far too many beautiful women…

    Very nicely put Mike. Would be interested to know if demand for your software has declined with the increase in fixtures over the last few years?

    Its a bit like having 5 sweet shops on the same same street, all doing good business. One day the sweet shop inspector comes along and tells 2 of them they have to close down. "But why?" asks the 2 owners. "There are too many sweetshops!" replies the inspector. "But why?" asks the owners…

    I think he means many are going bankrupt due to the recession and that will drive them away from racing.

    Its driving them away from business class air travel, expensive golf clubs, corporate days out, fancy restaurants etc…Fact of life in a recession and absolutely nothing to do with the amount of racing at the moment.

    If that happens, along with owners walking away because of the recession,then trainers will be imperilled.

    Trainers will be imperilled if their horses are sent to France for no other reason than some people think 5 or 6 meetings a day is too many despite there being clear figures that prove otherwise.

    I have to be careful what I say here as I do work with the race readers most days. Let’s just say when I do look at the formbook nowadays I do check to see who the race reader was before deciding how much credence I give the analysis.

    How difficult would it be to have a weather box, a jockey going comment box, a rail movement box, and a going stick report put on every form report in a standardised fashion. Too difficult evidently.

    But too much racing will dilute the product as a whole. Rather than spread £x million from the levy over 1,503 meetings why not spraed the same amount across 1,000 meetings and increase prize money across the board. Bring in a blank day each week, say Mondays, the number of meetings per day would not be too badly impacted. Also would it not be better to have three good quality meetings on a Saturday as opposed to one or two good plus three moderate meetings?

    That presupposes that levy yield would remain the same, I’d argue that it wouldn’t. Betting shop SP punters who make up the majority of the levy want to bet every 10 minutes, "they do it for the buzz" as Barry Dennis reminds us. So instead of waiting 20 minutes between races they’ll bet on something else, prizemoney declines, racing loses. The BHA know this. You can always have a self imposed blank day Paul. By "good quality" lets assume Class B and up. There simply aren’t enough horses rated 100 and upwards to fill 18 races every Saturday, especially when you factor in French and Irish weekend racing during the flat season.

    As it is racing is diverse enough to allow the connoisseur to specialise. There is too much QUALITY racing at the moment imo
    :wink:

    #240936
    Zarkava
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4691

    I’ve done quite a few google searches but no luck so far. Can anybody tell me when the entries are in for the Oaks and Guineas? Thanks.

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