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20 best horses not to win the Epsom Derby

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  • #1498448
    Avatar photorollotommasi
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    • Total Posts 82

    Harshthakor’s thread on the 20 best Epsom Derby winners inspires the q of who was the best horse to NOT win the Derby.

    Nick Mordin outlined a fairly basic system in his book Winning without Thinking a no. of years ago based around horses who had run in the Champion Bumper at Cheltenham and finished within a certain percentile of the winner, top 10 or so. He suggested a system to note those who qualify under that criteria in x no. (< 3) of their subsequent starts the following season once entering the novice hurdle division and facing a potentially less demanding set of circumstances.
    The theory being there was reason to assume some level of underlying ability had been shown either in home work or on the track to be considered of the quality to be aimed at the festival and be aimed at a division where there are a limited no. of G1 opportunities across the calendar and which as a consequence would be presumably highly competitive.
    The demanding nature of the track, sub optimal distance of the race, timing of the race in the horses career, racing potentially more forward horses and the occasion were noted as factors for a potential lack of performance in the race, factors not totally removed from those which could be noted for an under performance in the Derby

    From memory the basic system returned a slight edge (or better) however without running the no’s I presume this has been eroded somewhat/totally over time. The concept is interesting however and hints at the root of positive ev betting, namely assessing a performance which is potentially underrated

    For info, subsequent Group 1 winners to NOT win the Derby when looking back over the last 30 years are below. Dylan Thomas and Dubai Millenium would initially have sprung spring to mind however it is an interesting list nonetheless

    2019
    3rd: Japan – Grand Prix de Paris (2019), International Stakes (2019)
    6th: Circus Maximus – St James’s Palace Stakes (2019), Prix du Moulin (2019)
    10th: Sovereign – Irish Derby (2019)

    2018
    3rd: Roaring Lion – Eclipse Stakes (2018), International Stakes (2018), Irish Champion Stakes (2018), Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2018)
    9th: Kew Gardens – Grand Prix de Paris (2018), St Leger (2018)

    2017
    3rd: Cracksman – Champion Stakes (2017, 2018), Prix Ganay (2018), Coronation Cup (2018)
    5th: Benbatl – Dubai Turf (2018), Bayerisches Zuchtrennen (2018), Ladbrokes Stakes (2018)
    6th: Capri – Irish Derby (2017), St Leger (2017)
    8th: Best Solution – Grosser Preis von Berlin (2018), Grosser Preis von Baden (2018), Caulfield Cup (2018)
    16th: Rekindling – Melbourne Cup (2017)

    2016
    8th: Cloth of Stars – Prix Ganay (2017)
    11th: Deauville – Belmont Derby (2016)
    12th: Ulysses – Eclipse Stakes (2017), International Stakes (2017)

    2015
    2nd: Jack Hobbs – Irish Derby (2015), Sheema Classic (2017)

    2014
    2nd: Kingston Hill – St. Leger Stakes (2014)
    8th: Fascinating Rock – Champion Stakes (2015)

    2013
    12th: Dawn Approach – St. James’s Palace Stakes (2013)

    2012
    2nd: Main Sequence – United Nations Stakes (2014), Sword Dancer Invitational Handicap (2014), Joe Hirsch Turf Classic Invitational Stakes (2014), Breeders’ Cup Turf (2014)

    2011
    2nd: Treasure Beach – Irish Derby (2011), Secretariat Stakes (2011)
    8th: Masked Marvel – St. Leger Stakes (2011)

    2010
    3rd: Rewilding – Dubai Sheema Classic (2011), Prince of Wales’s Stakes (2011)
    8th: Buzzword – Deutsches Derby (2010)

    2009
    2nd: Fame and Glory – Irish Derby (2009), Tattersalls Gold Cup (2010), Coronation Cup (2010), Ascot Gold Cup (2011)
    4th: Rip Van Winkle – Sussex Stakes (2009), Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2009), International Stakes (2010)
    8th: Debussy – Arlington Million (2010)

    2008
    3rd: Casual Conquest – Tattersalls Gold Cup (2009)
    11th: Frozen Fire – Irish Derby (2008)

    2007
    2nd: Eagle Mountain – Hong Kong Cup (2008)
    4th: Lucarno – St. Leger (2007)
    5th: Soldier of Fortune – Irish Derby (2007), Coronation Cup (2008)
    6th: Salford Mill (renamed Helene Mascot) – Hong Kong Classic Mile (2008), Hong Kong Derby (2008)
    17th: Archipenko – Queen Elizabeth II Cup (2008)

    2006
    3rd: Dylan Thomas – Irish Derby (2006), Irish Champion Stakes (2006, 2007), Prix Ganay (2007), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (2007), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (2007)
    7th: Sixties Icon – St. Leger (2006)
    12th: Septimus – Irish St. Leger (2008)

    2005
    3rd: Dubawi – Prix Jacques Le Marois (2005)
    10th: Oratorio – Eclipse Stakes (2005), Irish Champion Stakes (2005)

    2004
    2nd: Rule of Law – St. Leger (2004)

    2003
    3rd: Alamshar – Irish Derby (2003), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (2003)
    9th: Magistretti – Man o’ War Stakes (2004)
    13th: Refuse to Bend – Queen Anne Stakes (2004), Eclipse Stakes (2004)
    16th: Brian Boru – St. Leger (2003)

    2002
    2nd: Hawk Wing – Eclipse Stakes (2002), Lockinge Stakes (2003)
    3rd: Moon Ballad – Dubai World Cup (2003)
    6th: Where or When – Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2002)

    2001
    2nd: Golan – King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (2002)
    5th: Storming Home – Champion Stakes (2002), Clement L. Hirsch Memorial Turf Championship (2003)

    2000
    2nd: Sakhee – International Stakes (2001), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (2001)
    3rd: Beat Hollow – Grand Prix de Paris (2000), Woodford Reserve Turf Classic (2002), Manhattan Handicap (2002), Arlington Million (2002)
    4th: Best of the Bests – Prix d’Ispahan (2002)

    1999:
    2nd: Daliapour – Coronation Cup (2000), Hong Kong Vase (2000)
    4th: Housemaster – Hong Kong Champions & Chater Cup (2000)
    8th: Compton Admiral – Eclipse Stakes (1999)
    9th: Dubai Millennium – Prix Jacques Le Marois (1999), Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (1999), Dubai World Cup (2000), Prince of Wales’s Stakes (2000)
    11th: Val Royal – Breeders’ Cup Mile (2001)

    1998:
    4th: Sunshine Street – San Juan Capistrano Handicap (2000)
    5th: Greek Dance – Bayerisches Zuchtrennen (2000)
    13th: Mutamam – Canadian International Stakes (2001)

    1997:
    2nd: Silver Patriarch – St. Leger (1997), Coronation Cup (1998), Gran Premio del Jockey Club (1998)
    11th: Single Empire – San Juan Capistrano Invitational Handicap (1999)

    1996:
    3rd: Shantou – St. Leger (1996), Gran Premio del Jockey Club (1996), Gran Premio di Milano (1997)
    9th: Chief Contender – Prix du Cadran (1997)
    15th: Storm Trooper – Hollywood Invitational Turf Handicap (1998)

    1995:
    5th: Court of Honour – Gran Premio del Jockey Club (1995)
    13th: Spectrum – Champion Stakes (1995)

    1994:
    2nd: King’s Theatre – King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1994)
    19th: Sunshack – Prix Royal-Oak (1995)
    21st: Broadway Flyer – Sword Dancer Invitational Handicap (1996)

    1993:
    5th: Barathea – Breeders’ Cup Mile (1994)
    6th: Bob’s Return – St. Leger (1993)

    1992:
    2nd: St Jovite – Irish Derby (1992), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1992)
    4th: Muhtarram – Irish Champion Stakes (1993), Premio Presidente della Repubblica (1994)
    8th: Great Palm – Premio Presidente della Repubblica (1993)
    9th: Rodrigo de Triano – International Stakes (1992), Champion Stakes (1992)
    13th: Assessor – Prix Royal-Oak (1992), Prix du Cadran (1993)

    1991:
    2nd : Marju – St. James’s Palace Stakes (1991)
    4th : Hector Protector – Prix Jacques Le Marois (1991)
    9th : Toulon – St. Leger (1991)
    11th Environment Friend – Eclipse Stakes (1991)

    1990:
    3rd: Elmaamul – Eclipse Stakes (1990), Phoenix Champion Stakes (1990)
    7th: Zoman – Prix d’Ispahan (1992), Washington, D.C. International Stakes (1992)
    18th: Mr Brooks – July Cup (1992), Prix de l’Abbaye de Longchamp (1992)

    #1498473
    Avatar photoEx RubyLight
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    • Total Posts 4118

    Great list rollotommasi…. The horse to which the thread title appeals the most has to be Dylan Thomas. A genuine 1m4f performer who still won an Irish Derby, a King George and an Arc. He might have benefitted from a 4-yo Derby, but I guess this will never happen.

    #1498495
    Avatar photoCork All Star
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    • Total Posts 8863

    Take it back four years and you have the best: Dancing Brave.

    #1498499
    Avatar photoBachelors Hall
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 1667

    Taking it back to 1979, it would appear Gran Alba was the best hurdler not to win the Epsom Derby, Ajdal the best sprinter and El Gran Senor is in the argument for best of the lot.

    (Credit to Tigerboy1966 for 1989-1981, credit to myself 1980-1979)

    1989
    2nd: Terimon – International Stakes (1991)
    3rd: Cacoethes – Turf Classic (1990)
    6th: Gran Alba – Christmas Hurdle (1991)

    1988
    6th: Sheriff’s Star – Coronation Cup (1989), Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud (1989)
    8th: Minster Son – St. Leger (1988)

    1987
    4th: Sir Harry Lewis – Irish Derby (1987)
    9th: Ajdal – July Cup (1987), William Hill Sprint Championship (1987)
    13th: Ibn Bey – Gran Premio d’Italia (1987), Preis von Europa (1989), Deutschland-Preis (1990), Irish St. Leger (1990)

    1986
    2nd: Dancing Brave – Eclipse Stakes (1986), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1986), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (1986)
    3rd: Mashkour – San Juan Capistrano Invitational Handicap (1991)
    10th: Allez Milord – Preis von Europa (1986), Oak Tree Invitational Stakes (1987)

    1985
    2nd: Law Society – Irish Derby (1985)
    7th: Theatrical – Hialeah Turf Cup Handicap (1987), Man o’ War Stakes (1987), Turf Classic Invitational Stakes (1987), Breeders’ Cup Turf (1987)
    11th: Petoski – King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1985)

    1984
    2nd: El Gran Senor – Irish Derby (1984)
    4th: At Talaq – Grand Prix de Paris (1984), Melbourne Cup (1986)
    5th: Alphabatim – Hollywood Turf Cup (1984, 1986)

    1983
    9th: Tolomeo – Arlington Million (1983)
    18th: Slewpy – Meadowlands Cup (1983)
    20th: Zoffany – Hollywood Turf Cup (1985), Sunset Handicap (1986), San Luis Rey Handicap (1987)
    U: Yawa – Grand Prix de Paris (1983), Premio Roma (1984)

    1982
    2nd: Touching Wood – St Leger (1982), Irish St Leger (1982)
    14th: Jalmood – Premio Presidente della Repubblica (1983)

    1981
    2nd: Glint of Gold – Grand Prix de Paris (1981), Preis von Europa (1981), Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud (1982), Grosser Preis von Baden (1982)
    13th: Kalaglow – Eclipse Stakes (1982), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1982)
    17th: Al Nasr – Prix d’Ispahan (1982)

    1980
    2nd: Master Willie – Benson and Hedges Gold Cup (1980), Coronation Cup (1981), Eclipse Stakes (1981)
    4th: Pelerin – Grosser Preis von Baden (1981)
    12th: Tyrnavos – Irish Derby (1980)

    1979
    2nd: Dickens Hill – Eclipse Stakes (1979)
    3rd: Northern Baby – Champion Stakes (1979)
    4th: Ela-Mana-Mou – Eclipse Stakes (1980), King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes (1980)
    5th: Lyphard’s Wish – United Nations Handicap (1980)
    9th: Niniski – Irish St. Leger (1979), Prix Royal-Oak (1979)
    15th: Son Of Love – St Leger Stakes (1979)

    #1498621
    Cancello
    Participant
    • Total Posts 268

    I’d add in two above average French Guineas winners who started favorite at Epsom but failed to stay – both going on to make highly successful stallions, Green Dancer in 1975, and Blushing Groom in 1977.

    #1498626
    Marginal Value
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    • Total Posts 703

    There are horses in those lists that did indeed achieve a lot. But the ones who were “the best” are Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium, closely followed by El Gran Senor.

    #1498636
    Avatar photoGladiateur
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    • Total Posts 4675

    That would be some three-runner race over ten furlongs, Marginal Value.

    #1498670
    Avatar photoEx RubyLight
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    • Total Posts 4118

    Still none of them lasted over two entire seasons like Dylan Thomas did. Two Irish Champion Stakes, an Irish Derby, an Arc and a King George makes him the standout performer.

    #1498673
    Avatar photoNathan Hughes
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    • Total Posts 32124

    Frankel…. :rose:

    Blackbeard to conquer the World

    #1498687
    Marginal Value
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    • Total Posts 703

    Nathan, from the context of the original post and all the replies I think the thread title means: “20 best horses not to win the Epsom Derby – who actually ran in it”

    #1498821
    harshthakor
    Participant
    • Total Posts 141

    My list of horses who did not win but participated in the Derby in order of merit.

    1.Dancing Brave
    2.Rheingold
    3.El Gran Senor
    4.Saakhee
    5.Ballymoss
    6.Meadow Court
    7.Gyr
    8.Ela Mana Mou
    9.Connaught
    10.Hawain Sound

    My list in order of merit of those who did not run in the Derby.

    1.Frankel
    2.Brigadier Gerard
    3.Vaguely Noble
    4.Dubai Millenium
    5.Alleged
    6.Dahlia
    7.Montjeu
    8.Mtoto
    9.Suave Dancer
    10.Ile De Bourbon

    #1498833
    Avatar photoCork All Star
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    • Total Posts 8863

    Dubai Millennium did run in the Derby. He was the unplaced favourite behind Oath in 1999. It was the only time he was defeated.

    #1499046
    Avatar photoPeter Poston’s Ghost
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    • Total Posts 553

    Sea Pigeon was the best hurdler to have run in the race but earlier than dates under consideration.
    Blushing Groom belongs on list of best non-winners.

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