The Whip Rule – Dettori changes his tune

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This topic contains 66 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Anonymous 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #19831

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146
    #374025
    Pompete
    Pompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2513

    No Pinza, he has not changed his tune rather he has merely stated the conclusion all reasonable people have come to;

    It will take jockeys time to adjust to these sensible new rules.

    Interestingly, the Irish Turf Club have also decided to monitor these new sensible rules

    with a view to determining how many of the recommendations should be introduced in Ireland.

    Sub-Committee set up on Whip Rules in Ireland

    Turf Club announce setting up of a Sub-Committee to examine the
    Whip Rules in Ireland

    The Stewards of the Governing Bodies have announced the setting up of a Sub-Committee to examine the current whip rules in the context of the detailed recommendations made by the British Horseracing Authority (BHA) following its review of the use of the whip in horseracing which was published earlier this week.

    The terms of reference for the Sub-Committee will be:
    (i) to examine the BHA recommendations in the context of the current Irish whip rules and guidelines with a view to determining how many, if any, of the recommendations should be introduced in Ireland.
    (ii) to consult widely with industry stakeholders on the use of the whip in Ireland.
    (iii) to consider any other matters relating to the use of the whip which were not addressed or where no recommendation was made in the BHA report.
    (iv) to make whatever recommendations are necessary for consideration by the Stewards of the Governing Bodies.

    The Sub-Committee will be chaired by Leslie Crawford (former trainer and current member of the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase (I.N.H.S.) Committee. Its other members will be Tom Rudd (former National Hunt Jockey and current member of the I.N.H.S. Committee), Colin Magnier (former leading amateur rider and current member of the Turf Club and I.N.H.S. Committee), Laurence McFerran (member of the I.N.H.S. Committee and Breeder) and Peter Matthews (Senior Stipendary Steward).

    Commenting on the setting up of the Sub-Committee, Turf Club Senior Steward John McStay said “the Sub-Committee will commence its review as soon as possible and will also monitor the introduction of the new rules in the UK. We look forward to receiving their report.”

    #374028
    Zamorston
    Zamorston
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1120

    Apologies for coming across a bit daft here but can someone post for me the ‘official’ reasons behind these new rules?

    I seem to have missed this in amongst everything that’s been going on.

    Is it to do with harming horses, improving attendances, RSPCA…etc..etc??

    Cheers..

    #374034

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    No Pinza, he has not changed his tune rather he has merely stated the conclusion all reasonable people have come to

    "All reasonable people"

    evidently doesn’t include the great majority of Industry Insiders from all disciplines, who are against it. You can’t get away with that kind of superior moral tone,

    Pompete

    . If you read the sub-text of Dettori’s article, he’s moved into neutral. We can expect a more thorough move into reverse once he gets his first ban and loss of income, which will possibly be on Saturday at Ascot. He’s got his excuses in first.

    Thank you for the details of the Irish initiative. Sensitive chaps that they are, they are of course prepared to support their beleaguered brethren at BHA by monitoring the chaos here – before doubtless deciding that their own rules work very nicely as they stand, thank you.

    #374036

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    Apologies for coming across a bit daft here but can someone post for me the ‘official’ reasons behind these new rules?

    Zamorston

    , a fair reading of the BHA Report gives the reason honestly and clearly: it is being done solely to address

    "public perception"

    (quote) and

    "ignorance of the use of the whip"

    (quote) amongst that portion of the general public "

    uninterested in racing

    " (quote).

    That is why this whole stupid business is so outrageous, and making so many racing fans, punters and industry insiders so very angry.

    #374037

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    [deleted – double post]

    #374038

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    Interestingly, the Irish Turf Club have also decided to monitor these new sensible rules

    with a view to determining how many of the recommendations should be introduced in Ireland.

    Just to be clear, your selective quote (italicised) just happened to accidentally omit two rather vital words. The actual quote reads thus:

    "with a view to determining how many,

    if any

    , of the recommendations should be introduced in Ireland."

    #374039
    cormack15
    cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 9973

    The majority of jockeys interviewed yesterday (including Buick and Hills) seemed to accept the rule changes and, while anticipating that it might take some time to bed in, were supportive of making the new rules work.

    McCoy, Dettori, Henry Cecil and Paul Nicholls are all happy to be quoted on teh BHA site as being behind the changes – and you don’t get much more ‘insider’ than that.

    You’re over-dramatising the whole thing Pinza, it’ll all quieten down in a month or two. It’s simply a question of jockeys abiding by the new ruling. It’s hardly rocket science either.

    Don’t you think the jockeys aren’t being given enough ‘hits’ to play with? Five strikes in the last furlong is, roughly, one every 2.4 seconds.

    SMACK, one elephant two elephant and a SMACK, one elephant two elephant and a SMACK, one elephant and a two elephant and a SMACK, one elephant and a two elephant and a SMACK, one elephant and a two elephant and a SMACK.

    And that’s the final furlong over. Do you really, do you really think there is any justification or need for allowing more hits than that?

    #374042

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    And that’s the final furlong over. Do you really, do you really think there is any justification or need for allowing more hits than that?

    If it’s as simple as that,

    Corm

    – which it actually is – do you really think there’s any justification for

    counting

    the number of hits at all?

    All of this furore would have been avoided if a flexible, pragmatic approach rather than accountancy bean-count principles had been applied to the rule.

    I don’t remember this volcanic anger and resentment being generated when the whip Guidelines were originally introduced, do you? It feels different this time – a question maybe of straws and camels – and I’m afraid it’s not going to die down or go away, in the way the appeasers would like.

    No. This show will run and run. Animal Aiders will see to that, even if the defenders of Racing let BHA (think) they’ve got away with it.

    #374049
    cormack15
    cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 9973

    If it’s as simple as that, Corm – which it actually is – do you really think there’s any justification for counting the number of hits at all

    Of course there is – it’s the only pragmatic way of setting a measurable standard by which to control abuse of the whip. The jockeys actually sked for such clarity of standards.

    Checking for weals and marks is fine (and we should continue to do that) but setting standards such as those set by BHA (after wide consultation, including jockey’s representatives) wil lhelp control abuse and avoid flagrant mis-use and a win-at-all-costs mentatlity.

    The reason, if there is one, that jockeys will find difficulty adapting is that they have a win-at-all-costs culture where, in the past, penalties have not been any sort of deterrent. I suspect one of teh reasons some of them are up in arms is because they now realise they can no longer get away with mis-use at will without uincurring a meaningful, damaging penalty.

    Which is just as it should be.

    #374050
    Zamorston
    Zamorston
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1120

    Got to love Matt Chapman….just posted the following on Facebook….

    "Can’t for the life of me understand why ATR, RUK and the Racing Post keep interviewing racing professionals, jockeys and trainers over the new whip rules. They were brought in for the people shopping in Tesco, Harrods and Next during the afternoon so they would either go racing instead or start to enjoy the sport. Go and ask them if the new rules are working?"

    :lol:

    #374053

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    The reason, if there is one, that jockeys will find difficulty adapting is that they have a win-at-all-costs culture where, in the past, penalties have not been any sort of deterrent. I suspect one of teh reasons some of them are up in arms is because they now realise they can no longer get away with mis-use at will without uincurring a meaningful, damaging penalty

    This is a fascinating and revealing response, Corm.

    "A win-at-all-costs culture"

    suggests that skullduggery, cheating and cruelty is rampant amongst the profession. And also that it is somehow wrong to try one’s hardest to win.

    I’m sorry to disillusion you, Corm, but this is a

    Sport

    , and it’s called Horse

    Racing

    . The idea is to win the race, not lose it. Tactics, gamesmanship and taking the horse to its limit all have a necessary part in this. If you dislike it, then you don’t have to watch it.

    The jockeys have not been able to get away with

    "misuse at will"

    for many years, in case you hadn’t noticed. There are adequate and fair penalties to stop them doing that. The percentage of horses marked by the new whip last season was something under two in ten thousand runners. There are penalties for using the whip incorrectly, whilst practises perfectly legal elsewhere in the world (such as a "windmill action") are not allowed either.

    You are effectively saying that you don’t believe the scientists such as Tim Morris, or the RSPCA, who tell us the new whip is perfectly safe and inflicts no cruelty. You know better.

    You are effectively telling the British jockeys (most of whom are of course Irish) that they are a bunch of children who have to be chastised "for their own good". They don’t know their trade. You know better.

    This debate has generated a huge quantity of posts to the Forum, which must (in one sense!) please you. Isn’t it time you thought about whether the majority of contributors have a valid point to make about what’s really going on here? Or perhaps you think that you know better?

    #374054

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    Got to love Matt Chapman….just posted the following on Facebook….

    "Can’t for the life of me understand why ATR, RUK and the Racing Post keep interviewing racing professionals, jockeys and trainers over the new whip rules. They were brought in for the people shopping in Tesco, Harrods and Next during the afternoon so they would either go racing instead or start to enjoy the sport. Go and ask them if the new rules are working?"

    Excellent stuff from Mr Chapman!

    #374059
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 24175

    Pinza,

    You have constantly whipped up every little thing out of all proportion in this debate to suit your opinion.

    I suggest you read the more balanced sportinglife article on Frankie Dettori.

    It says:

    Dettori thinks riders should have been given some time to adjust, but

    insists the changes are key to improving the image of racing

    .

    "The change in the rules was

    overdue

    . We have to show the wider public that racing is a fun, beautiful sport and

    not cruel

    ," he said.

    "Hopefully people who know nothing about the sport will see that it’s not about being cruel and that

    we have stronger guidelines

    .

    "We’re all going to need time to adjust to the new rules. I think a longer bedding in period would have been good, but the rules are there now.

    "We’ve basically been told to ride one way, in my case for 25 years, and then you have to change overnight.

    "

    It will take some time to adjust, but the rules had to change and I think in the long run it’s better for the sport

    ."

    value is everything
    #374064

    Anonymous
    • Total Posts 18146

    Pinza,

    You have constantly whipped up every little thing out of all proportion in this debate to suit your opinion.

    I suggest you read the more balanced sportinglife article on Frankie Dettori.

    In this case, I posted a link to the

    Racing Post

    article

    without further comment

    , and allowed people to make their own minds up, as you have. It is hard to have that action described as

    "whipped up … out of all proportion

    "?

    What I am doing is collecting some interesting evidence to support my opinion that we’re watching a slow-motion car crash. Where there is evidence against that idea, I try to weigh such evidence just as fairly.

    But here, there is most definitely a sub-text – a

    pre-positioning

    if you like, to Dettori’s words, whether selected by

    Racing Post

    or

    Sporting Life

    .

    Remember who his employer is. Remember that employer’s indifference to this whole whipping debate. Remember that he employs Dettori to

    win

    races, not

    lose

    them. And see what happens on Saturday if

    Poet’s Voice

    or any other Godolphin horse gets in a position to win a major Group race.

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