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Posts
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Hopefully that explains better what I am trying to say. Suspect even if you do understand Drone; we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Yep Gingerbiscuits, I’ve been wandering this planet long enough to realise that dogma should be shot down and opinion debated. You seem certain, but I careful to use qualifiers such as "suggest", ‘cos I’m certain of little other than the sun will rise in the morning, and even that ain’t nailed
I would suggest that you don’t know it all, but believe you do, like all those on TRF who’ve chosen to debate this nebulous and subjective matter
Hopefully that explains better what I am trying to say. Suspect even if you do understand Drone; we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Yep Gingerbiscuits, I’ve been wandering this planet long enough to realise that dogma should be shot down and opinion debated. You seem certain, but I careful to use qualifiers such as "suggest", ‘cos I’m certain of little other than the sun will rise in the morning, and even that ain’t nailed
I would suggest that you don’t know it all, but believe you do, like all those on TRF who’ve chosen to debate this nebulous and subjective matter
My post was written as if dealing in facts, you are right to pull me up on it. At least we agree on something Drone. When we are trying to put ourselves in the minds of horses, it can only be subjective.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
I’ve been watching racing since the 60s and nothing I’ve seen in the past few days has diluted my enjoyment. In fact it has been enhanced by some artful rides from the front and a few jockeys counting horses in, hands and heels, with admirable verve and accuracy.
Another few days of this and I think it’s going to be kind of hard for the jumps boys to revert to the ‘something must be done – this is ruining the sport’ approach.
I’ve not yet checked – were there any bans today for exceeding the number of strokes?
I am in awe of your fathomless complaisance,
Steeplechasing
. You remind me of that crowd of oprochniks portrayed by Shostakovich (so it’s said in
Testimony
) at the "triumphal" end of his 5th Symphony, marching up and down with fixed grins, shouting
"We are enjoying ourselves! We are enjoying ourselves!"
Any "
artful rides
" from the
back
to vary this delectable fare you’re loving so much? And even your chum Mr Ostermeyer described today’s main race at Kempton as a "schooling session". What did you think?
And then, what’s your take on the new
"reins slap"
the jumps boys have devised to get around the rules? Not pretty, is it? Well, you’ll be seeing a lot more of it now, until David Muir catches on!
There were
three bans
today, by the way: two at Kempton over jumps, one at Wolves on the flat. Two of these were whipping offences under the
new rules
(they don’t use the old rules any more, you know). And it’s irrelevant whether we’re talking about
frequency
or not, because there’s more to the changes than just the bean-count reduction. Every ban adds to the BHA tally which they’re convinced is going to raise the bad, old 99.25% compliance rate to … well, what I wonder?
This is about "
incentives
" and
"culture change
", not cutting down on frequency. That’s what our masters at the RSPCA tell us, you know.
(PS Make that
FOUR
bans today – so many to think about, that I missed the two days for the young apprentice for "careless" at Wolves. "Careless" of me!!)
I’ve been watching racing since the 60s and nothing I’ve seen in the past few days has diluted my enjoyment. In fact it has been enhanced by some artful rides from the front and a few jockeys counting horses in, hands and heels, with admirable verve and accuracy.
Another few days of this and I think it’s going to be kind of hard for the jumps boys to revert to the ‘something must be done – this is ruining the sport’ approach.
I’ve not yet checked – were there any bans today for exceeding the number of strokes?
I am in awe of your fathomless complaisance,
Steeplechasing
. You remind me of that crowd of oprochniks portrayed by Shostakovich (so it’s said in
Testimony
) at the "triumphal" end of his 5th Symphony, marching up and down with fixed grins, shouting
"We are enjoying ourselves! We are enjoying ourselves!"
Any "
artful rides
" from the
back
to vary this delectable fare you’re loving so much? And even your chum Mr Ostermeyer described today’s main race at Kempton as a "schooling session". What did you think?
And then, what’s your take on the new
"reins slap"
the jumps boys have devised to get around the rules? Not pretty, is it? Well, you’ll be seeing a lot more of it now, until David Muir catches on!
There were
three bans
today, by the way: two at Kempton over jumps, one at Wolves on the flat. Two of these were whipping offences under the
new rules
(they don’t use the old rules any more, you know). And it’s irrelevant whether we’re talking about
frequency
or not, because there’s more to the changes than just the bean-count reduction. Every ban adds to the BHA tally which they’re convinced is going to raise the bad, old 99.25% compliance rate to … well, what I wonder?
This is about "
incentives
" and
"culture change
", not cutting down on frequency. That’s what our masters at the RSPCA tell us, you know.
(PS Make that
FOUR
bans today – so many to think about, that I missed the two days for the young apprentice for "careless" at Wolves. "Careless" of me!!)
I didn’t think the 3.10 was a ‘schooling session’; a comfortable victory for an odds-on chance with a stone in hand of his nearest rival. I think Somersby’s a quirky type – he ran around a bit approaching the last and the RP summary desribes him as ‘pushed along’ on the run-in.
As to artful rides from the back, I haven’t watched every race. I paid particular attention to Carlisle yesterday given its place in the BHA’s list for whip offences.
But it seems even some the youngsters are embracing the new frequency rules and here’s a report from the RP on what seems to have been an accomplished ride at Huntingdon yesterday:
Quite a few of these were in trouble early, including the gambled-on TARVINI, but Maurice Linehan produced one of the better rides you will see to get
the idle 6yo
up in the final strides. In McCoy-like manner, Linehan, who was claiming 10lb, persisted with pressure, staying within the new whip rules, and conjured a strong run out of his mount after the last, looking great value for his claim and like a professional in the process. This was the horse´s first win since June 2010, and it was a deserved one also, having finished placed on each of his three most recent outings.
As for the "new" ‘reins slap’, I must be missing something. Are the jocks twirling them differently or swinging them in lariat fashion? I’ve seen nothing new – certainly nothing just ‘devised’ as you put it. Jockeys are simply adjusting – I don’t think of it as pretty – what are you comparing this prettiness with, a blow or two from a whip?
As to the number of bans, you are quite correct, they will all count when the figures are totted up. But you did not answer my specific question, a perfectly relevant one given the massive hoo-ha from the conservatives like you that stroke-counting should be at best abolished and at worst returned to the ‘old’ system- were any of today’s bans handed out for exceeding 8 strokes?
You also had nothing to say about my final point: whatever has led to this sudden compliance on stroke-count, it is going to be very difficult for the jocks to go back on – don’t you think so?
Pinza – on one of these innumerable, insufferable threads about the whip rules, did you not say earlier today that your post was to be your last of the day ?
Thereafter have you not been the most vocal contributor over all matters re whip ?
In one of your many responses you ask for a great hold up ride since the whip ban, I believe. Despite now losing the will to live, Murphy on Weird Al.
Good night, God bless.- Total Posts 17716
Pinza – on one of these innumerable, insufferable threads about the whip rules, did you not say earlier today that your post was to be your last of the day
Events, dear boy, events…. I can only apologise. You wouldn’t expect me to let mi’learned friends on the other side get away with murder, would you? And I thought it right to inform the Forum of the collapse of the Commons meeting.
I will try harder tomorrow, I promise.
By the way, I wouldn’t describe Timmy Murphy on
Weird Al
as coming from the
back
(which is what I asked for). He was never that far off the pace; though as you rightly say, it was a masterly hold-up ride. I think the recognition right now from the jockeys (on both codes) is that you can’t be too far off the pace under these temporary new rules.
- Total Posts 17716
You also had nothing to say about my final point: whatever has led to this sudden compliance on stroke-count, it is going to be very difficult for the jocks to go back on – don’t you think so?
Steeplechasing
, please don’t keep asking me to pick so many of your nits. I am not a mountain gorilla. And people are finding these duets tedious (so am I, by the way).
One of my irrefutable points, as I suspect you’ve gathered by now, is that if you removed the stroke count (or at the very least sent it back to flexible guideline territory) then there would be fewer bans, which is the BHA’s aim. This is true, yes?
You can’t say – and no more can I – how many of these multiple bans under the new rules are caused, directly and indirectly, by the stroke count. Four bans on a mild Monday with good going is hardly encouraging. There is no "sudden compliance". One summer doesn’t make me swallow.
The "no time to respond" bans certainly look as if they took place when the jockeys were "saving up their allowance" and then used it all up too quickly. The "non-trier" ban today also looked stroke-count related. What is a young jockey to do, caught between devil and deep blue sea? Banned if he does, banned if he doesn’t.
You can’t get away with "only" counting stroke-count crimes. That is not the game which BHA are playing.
Only if the total number of bans goes down would you be able to say the new rules were a success.
And you need to better the 99.25% compliance figure under the bad, old 2009 rules. And if you do this then, of course, it will be at the expense of making the riding style necessary to get around them totally at odds with riding styles and techniques in the rest of the world. And at the expense of diversity of race tactics, and running styles within the horse population.
So even if you’re proved right, and the number of bans falls, British Racing can only be the loser in the short/medium and long term, as the CEO of the Hong Kong Jockey Club fears.
The technique that Pinza describes is where the jockey lets the reins through his hands, using the full loop. This means he can keep his hands on the rein (a technical requirement under the new rules for the strike not to count) but gets much more movement with his arms (& stick) than if he was riding with reins held normally.
You’re right PInza that the jumps boys are using it. Luke Harvey described how they were using the techinique more than a week ago now on ATR.
I’ve seen flat jockeys use it too, it was a pretty alarming sight & I was surprised it wasn’t picked up on more widely.
The ban that Crowley got last night at Wolves is interesting. He used his stick 3 times. Horse didn’t pick up and he put the stick down again.
At the time he picked it up he was at the back of the field but the field itself was tightly grouped and jockeys in front of him using their sticks were only a length or so up on him. He was only a few lengths off the winner at the time he picked the stick up. He was judged to be ‘out of contention’ at the time. Happy days for certain operators if being a few lengths off placed horses is ‘out of contention’!The readiness of jockeys to find ‘loopholes’ provides yet another illustration of the culture that is in place in the weighing room re- the whip.
Reducing the number of whip bans WAS NOT the thrust of the BHA’s review.
"The Review Group considers that the current system of
penalties for those jockeys who breach the Rules of Racing
(“the Rules”) on whip use is not an effective deterrent in
its current form. Too many breaches of the Rules on whip
use are occurring, and the Review Group believes that
the Authority can better incentivise long-term behavioural
change through a wide range of recommendations with this
aim in mind."I’d highlight the phrase
‘Long -term behavioural change’ – that’s what it is about, not an overnight, revelatory, change to the culture. As mentioned above, there hs been plenty eveidence since the tighter rules on whip use have been implemented that the weighing room culture towards whip use is in need of remedy. Their reaction of horror as the reality of the new penalties kicked in illustrates that the BHA have at least, finally, got their attention on the matter after years of trying.
The ban that Crowley got last night at Wolves is interesting. He used his stick 3 times. Horse didn’t pick up and he put the stick down again.
At the time he picked it up he was at the back of the field but the field itself was tightly grouped and jockeys in front of him using their sticks were only a length or so up on him. He was only a few lengths off the winner at the time he picked the stick up. He was judged to be ‘out of contention’ at the time. Happy days for certain operators if being a few lengths off placed horses is ‘out of contention’!I was going to post about that myself Sean, in fact I think it deserves a thread all of it’s own.
When seeing the whip ban on the BHA website I was puzzled how it could have occurred as Jim Crowley doesn’t come across as a whip happy jockey, I thought maybe he had lost his temper with a recalcitrant horse but that still seemed unlikely.
So I watched it again and couldn’t believe my eyes, the horse travelled perfectly well albeit in the rear until the straight when Crowley asked him for his effort with as you say 3 strokes of the whip, you may have hoped the horse would pick up but the result was negative and he just pushed his mount out.
If he had not used his whip when travelling well and coasted in it would have looked a blatant case of non trying, at least in the good old days, it seems that what they want these days though.It was an absolutely ludicrous decision to charge and convict him with using his whip when "out of contention" the only way you could come up with that is in hindsight and after the event. Maybe Crowley should have known his horse would not pick up.
The professionals in the sport really need to do something about this farce.Where a long-term change in attitude is desirable, a gradual implementation of stricter procedures would have been better. Had the BHA introduced the stiffer penalties under the old rules, the jockeys would have no doubt moaned but would have had considerably less sympathy. Once they had become accustomed to adhering to the rules (something that the previous penalties gave no incentive for the jockeys to do), then they could have looked at adjusting the rules if any further changes were deemed to be needed.
The jockeys real gripe is not the rules, but the penalties. Giving them 2 new things to consider was over-taxing.
- Total Posts 17716
The jockeys real gripe is not the rules, but the penalties. Giving them 2 new things to consider was over-taxing.
I’d hoped not to read this sort of "jockeys are stupid" comment again. Read Steve Cauthen if you want to know what riding a race feels like.
Thanks to
SeanBoyce
and
Yeats
for explaining what seemed a curious incident with Crowley. Another ban, then, which can on the face of it be put down to the jockey’s fear of exceeding the stroke quota. I wonder if it would be possible to ask Jim Crowley what happened from his point of view?
Cormack
: To quote your own quote,
"Too many breaches of the Rules on whip use are occurring"
. So how do you or BHA intend to
measure
the effect of this puritan "
culture change
" except by recording a reduced number of whip bans, across the board? Your post is, for you, oddly without sense that I can see.
- Total Posts 17716
The readiness of jockeys to find ‘loopholes’ provides yet another illustration of the culture that is in place in the weighing room re- the whip.
No, not the culture
"re- the whip"
Corm.
It’s the culture
"re- wanting to win the race without having your livelihood taken away"
. It’s the culture
"re- having the brains to outsmart absurdly low stroke counts"
. It’s the culture
"re- let’s give a message to our owners that we’re still trying our best despite the tinkerings of the Puritan fringe"
.
Enough of culture. Time for the Pinzoid marmite on toast, and (I hope) a whip free day – if only to please
Coggy
). But any Panglossian Pecksniffery will be answered as it deserves!
I was not implying that jockeys were stupid, merely that 2 significant changes of practices are harder to digest than one. No matter what one’s chosen vocation.
Having had a certain amount of discourse with jockeys in a social environment, my own opinion of their wits is a matter for myself and my priest.
- Total Posts 17716
I was not implying that jockeys were stupid, merely that 2 significant changes of practices are harder to digest than one. No matter what one’s chosen vocation.
Having had a certain amount of discourse with jockeys in a social environment, my own opinion of their wits is a matter for myself and my priest.
Hmm. I see. Well, having had a certain amount of social discourse with priests, my opinion of
their
wits is a matter between me and my jockey!
Sean , the problem is , most of the pro whip ban voices , including the owner of this forum cannot /will not see the bigger picture
I will spell it out
Crowley ‘s ban was immoral for 2 reasons
1 it is morally wrong to penalise a jockey when trying to win a race whilst staying within the rules
2 It send out the message , this is a cheats charter , it clearly and concisely sends a message to jocks , if out of contention , sit tight and coast home please , otherwise those Rspca LADS will be on our case ..
3 It sends out a message to punters , hey you guys are mad to be betting on this , I mean if your not prominent, you have no chance …sorry punters , we want jocks to coast home , after all it looks a lot better
4 it sends out a message to jockeys that the game is finished , and they should be riding somewhere else
5 finally for duffers like me who take an interest, it sends out the message , that british racing is finished , the competitive sport with driving finishes, well timed and brilliant judgement of pace will soon vanish , to be replaced by cartoon style racing,
The whole matter is a disgrace , the saddest feature for me is that some guys cannot or will not accept that
It needs to be sorted , I hope the latest Paul can sort , if not we are looking at the end of racing as we now know it
Ricky
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