Stayers Hurdle 2018

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This topic contains 185 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by KevMcAlley KevMcAlley 11 hours, 48 minutes ago.

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  • #1337156
    Gingertipster
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    No, not unless we are talking two types of speed and two types of stamina. In which case it’s a type of speed and stamina I’m not familiar with, may be that’s the something unfathomable I’ve been searching for? 😉

    value is everything
    #1337157
    Voleur
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    So what your saying is, the reason Harry Angel is a sprinter, is because of the particular blend of speed and stamina that he has. Correct.

    But you’re also implying Harry Angel is a class sprinter, not because he is faster than the other sprinters, but because of something “unfathomable.”

    Really? Is this a wind up?

    #1337158
    Voleur
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    You’ve lost me.

    Speed is how quick the horse is able to run. Stamina is how long the horse can sustain running. There is no two types?

    #1337160
    Gingertipster
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    It begins with the same horse, Voleur. To put it another way:
    If a horse suddenly has “more speed”/becomes faster what is it exactly that would make it become effective at a shorter trip without changing its mark/class?… And what is it exactly that would make it change its class/mark without changing its required distance?

    My answer would be that its the blend of speed and stamina changing towards speed is what changes its distance requirements without changing its class. Where as it would be something unfathomable that changes its class without changing distance requirements.

    Have you an answer?

    value is everything
    #1337162
    Voleur
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    Unless the horse somehow lost stamina in the process of gaining speed, there would be absolutely no reason for it to drop in trip. The question is null. It would instantly become more effective at the trip it already runs at because a) it already has sufficient stamina to be competitive at that trip, and b) it now has more speed which will allow it to achieve a higher rating at that trip.

    E.g. A 2 mile horse has enough speed and stamina to achieve a mediocre mark at that trip, he suddenly gains excess speed which allows him to run to a higher mark. a) Why would he drop in trip? And b) is it not glaringly obvious why he can achieve a better mark at 2 miles?

    #1337163
    Gingertipster
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    Exactly, speed and stamina are about distance requirements, although there are many contributory factors in what goes towards ability/class imo there’s something unfathomable that tips the balance. Of course we are all in that way “lost” because it can not be fully explained.

    value is everything
    #1337164
    Voleur
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    I’ll try again. If a horse’s distance requirements change as a result in a change of the amount of speed or stamina it has, then its class would also change in relation to its opposition.

    The New One for example. He once had the speed for 2 miles, and enough speed as to consider him as a class horse at that distance. He has since lost that speed, and is no longer considered a class horse at that distance. If he stepped up in trip however, the blend of speed and stamina he has now may be enough, relative to his opposition, to consider him a class horse at that distance.

    Not an ideal example but you get the picture.

    #1337165
    Voleur
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    You may be lost, but not I.

    I do not believe in this mystical, unfathomable, “something.” Some horses do have an aura, or a presence, like Sprinter Sacre did, but that is not what makes them class. Their ability on the racetrack does. I believe horses have speed, and they have stamina. A superior blend of the two will make a class racehorse.

    You go your way and I’ll go mine, neither of us will lose a great deal of sleep over it I imagine. Although I have already lost more than I would have liked tonight…

    #1337166
    Gingertipster
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    You said both distance requirements and class are to do with the blend of speed and stamina. So according to you the levels of speed influence both distance and class. So if the balance changes a horse has more speed and when that happens sometimes it will mean it’ll be effective at a shorter trip – yes? Or is it in your opinion only “stamina” that influences distance requirements?

    Sometimes an increase in the amount of speed will influence distance requirements without influencing class. Sometimes an increase in speed will influence the class of a horse without changing distance requirements.

    Am struggling to see what causes a horse to go along one particular path when having “more speed”.

    I thought you were dismissive of my idea of having different amounts of speed and stamina per horse? Am I wrong in thinking this “balance of speed and stamina” you’re talking about re distance is like a see-saw, if a horse gets more speed its level of stamina must come down in equal measure?

    value is everything
    #1337167
    Gingertipster
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    So if we are not talking about where speed amounts go up stamina amounts come down by the same amounts, we must be talking about this type of scenario where different horses have different amounts.

    Something you were dismissive about earlier. What a waste of time. :wacko:

    value is everything
    #1337168

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    Guys – this seems like a private disagreement but here’s my view although I’m not sure if this will shed any light on the situation.

    Class is simply a group of attributes which are either shared or not. Different classes (or groupings of attributes) are typically differentiated by some perceived notion of quality.

    In horse racing terms I would see Class as the combination of speed and stamina, with an emphasis on speed, and how well this combination matches the race distance and type and relative to the other horses in the race.

    Take Denman and Kauto Star. In car terms Kauto Star was the Ferrari and Denman was the Range Rover. Both classy vehicles but people tended to attribute more Class to Kauto because of his greater speed relative to Denman. Hence, class – as in high class – is the association of speed with superior quality and athleticism whilst possessing the requisite levels of stamina.

    #1337169
    Voleur
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    .

    • This reply was modified 3 days, 3 hours ago by Voleur Voleur.
    #1337170
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    I couldn’t have put it better myself :good:

    Feel free to take over, I don’t think I ever want to hear the word class again. :wacko:

    #1337214
    Nathan Hughes
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    Classic ginger this one…. :scratch:
    He has the required stamina to go on forever until he has the last word… :mail:
    I have to agree with Voleur here that it certainly is not unfathomable
    Plenty of attributes needed to help with speed and stamina ie the ability to relax, switch off, conserve energy which helps in all distances be it 5 furlongs or 4 miles.
    Joe said if you looked at horses in the paddock you wouldn’t be able to tell the class 7 from the top ones but I did see Sprinter Sacre in the paddock and he certainly looked the perfect specimen. I never saw Frankel live but on tv he always looked like he had the perfect formation. I think breeding comes into it to an extent look at how well the Galileo’s have done over the years but in the end the horses which are the ‘class ones’ are 99 times out of 100 the ones that win the most which are a high percentage of time the fastest, fittest, strongest etc
    Good read guys…. :good:

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #1337251
    Gingertipster
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    Don’t know about being able to go on forever, Nathan. When the conversation goes something like this:

    Ginge: What makes a horse top of the Class?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse go faster?
    Voleur: More Speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.
    Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than other horses?
    Voleur: More stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
    Voleur: Staying better.
    Ginge: What makes a horse stay better than any other horse?
    Voleur: More stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes a horse have more stamina?
    Voleur: Staying better.
    Ginge: What makes a horse the best at intermediate trips?
    Voleur: Better blend of speed and stamina.
    Ginge: But what makes it faster at the intermediate trip?
    Voleur: More speed.
    Ginge: But what makes the horse have more speed?
    Voleur: Going faster.

    We know what makes a horse the fastest is going faster, what we want to know is what makes it go faster? As I said, there are many contributory factors to that question but in the end what shifts the balance is imo something unfathomable.
    But if the answer to the question is actually speed and stamina genes then so be it, just surprising sports science hasn’t found them yet.

    value is everything
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