King Stand stakes 2017

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This topic contains 105 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by stevecaution stevecaution 1 year, 4 months ago.

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  • #1305314
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
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    Well Lady Aurelia is sticking around for the Nunthorpe Stakes so she will have whatever nefarious substances you folks claim she is on out of her system :wacko: Steroids are illegal in the US and the tracks take drug testing very seriously. Believe it or not American turf horses can in fact beat Europeans on their own merits.

    Wesley Ward IS known as a great trainer of 2yos in the US and the main reason he hasn’t won as many stakes races here recently is that he sends his best horses to run in…England.

    Clenbuterol is not a “steroid” as such, Miss Woodford. But used in the right (wrong) way, it does have the same result… Which is why trainers in Europe are banned from using it on horses in training.

    As I understand it use of Clenbuterol is widespread where Ward trains, he’s actually on record as saying he uses it on all his USA runners. As I understand the drug is allowed there as long as it is out of the horse’s system (untraceable) on race day. Indeed I believe official advice there is to stop using it at least 21 days before race day. Yes, Clenbuterol may be “out of its system”, but muscle growth/maturity does not suddenly disappear after that 21 days. The advantage a horse trained on Clenuterol has against one that is not trained on the drug is muscle/maturity!

    For Ward’s UK runners, all he needs to do is sign a piece of paper saying that his horse/s has/have never been trained on drugs banned in the UK. On the other hand – Uk horses can be tested at any time and if found guilty trainers face the wrath of British authorities. Ward is a multiple offender of even USA rules on Clenuterol, Miss Woodford… And effectively gets a slap on the wrist (short ban) from US authorities. Would you believe this man’s signature when – not just one year but every year – he comes over with overly muscled, overly mature horses?

    value is everything
    #1305320
    Gingertipster
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    I didn’t see “A lot” of people tipping her. Anyway, you thought she had an unfair advantage, yet managed to back two others in the race. That makes no logical sense to me. I wouldn’t back a horse I thought was at an unfair disadvantage.

    Each to their own. The pattern is there for all to see with Ward and if you choose to back against them then there really is no excuse for crying foul unless you were unaware of the history.

    Punters are certainly wiring in on Happy Like A Fool tomorrow and it’s been as if Acapulco and Lady Aurelia have been forgotten from the previous two years and some punters needed a slap in the face to wake up.

    God knows. I know that I did Happy Like A Fool at 7/2 and said at the time the money would come once punters took their eyes off the day-in day-out dross and focused on better opportunities.

    TRFers will be glad I won’t go in to percentages again, Steve. 😆 But just because a horse has an unfair advantage does not mean its price is value to win. I don’t think you’d be foolish enough to have backed Happy Like A Fool had the price been 2/7? Successful punters need to judge whether the price makes any advantage/disadvantage worth backing – whether that’s a trip, ground or drugs advantage/disadvantage. So it makes perfect sense to me to back any horse I believe “value”.

    Well done for backing Happy Like A Fool @ 7/2, am envious. 11/10 today is fair, but imo there’s better “value”. Heartache should be in the first three, so around 6/1 is good each way value.

    value is everything
    #1305333

    Twice Over
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    Completely agree Ginger. Instead of all this fawning over Lady Aurelia and Wesley Ward it should be pointed out that Ward has an advantage over his rivals. Sport is supposed to be played on a level playing field. Never mind being able to gallop his horses at Ascot, that pales into significance when compared with the advantages that drugs give.

    A question I would like to ask is how does Ward rate in the USA? Is he the top trainer over there, or are there other trainers who are considered his superior? I suspect that other trainers could have the same success if sending their charges over.

    Anyway as punters you can take advantage of these lax rules and I have done so by backing Nookta sound in the last :good:

    Ward in America, NOT EVEN CLOSE! Just another decent enough trainer, does little on the dirt (hey, some US trainers made their success primarily on turf)

    Chad Brown and to a lesser extent William Mott are the main lads for turf races. Keiran McLaughlin does well for Shadwell and Godolpin . The English man, Graham Motion, has had some very notable success with Niarchos/Flaxman horses

    Ward does get some Coolmore horses, who, surprisingly, even with their sires like Giant Causeway who led the Champion Sires division for one or two years, are no where near remotely dominant in Turf races unless O’Brien send B team horses to the Mid summer races.

    Ward wins races alright, and in fairness he does not run as many horses compared to the big boys, but alot of races are allowances and small grade stuff. In fairness to the man, those horses that do win big in the US eg Hootenanny , Undrafted, Acalupuco (many of whom are at some point owned by Coolmore or bought by Coolmore) , are sent over to Royal Ascot where compared to Americans prize money, is peanuts.(I note Ascot have upped the prizemoney in many races)

    http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=People&searchType=T&eID=1978

    This is the list of his graded US wins, which , looks rather average considering they have so many graded races (have a look at someone like Chad Brown and what he does in a year, and he ain’t that long as a trainer)

    http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=StakesListing&searchType=T&eID=1978&rbt=TB

    So basically he’s nothing special over there and when he comes over here he dominates. Probably tells us everything we need to know :good:

    Just very clever placing.A little like Dermot Weld (okay, great for getting lower grade winners in Ireland, not so much once they go to Group 1 level bar Fascinating Rock and Free Eagle and of course Harzand) (every 5-8 years :yes: ) when he spots a winnable race eg Belmont Stakes, Belmont Turf Derby (Winchester) Melbourne Cups and his recent Belmont win .

    It is not like Britain and Ireland (or France) are renowned for serious hopefuls in International Sprints like Hong Kong on International Night, Singapore International or Breeders Cup Sprints (preferring to chance the mile instead eg Oasis Dream, Limato , Moonlight Cloud) or in Dubai (well, in the early years, okay, but now the Yanks are going back over) Eddie Lynam with Sole Power is one of the few who have had much joy over seas (and Tom Hogan in Australia with Gordon Lord Byron but that race was on a swamp)

    Anyway, Ward concentrates on 2 year old’s. Sure, what our horses do at 2 is nice but not vital, we want them to perform at 3 and as a bonus at 4,5,6. He did alright with Undrafted, didn’t he win a Breeders Cup?

    It is funny how we fawn over Ward though, but still, at least he tries to find somewhere else to raid.Why not Ascot eh? International exposure etc. Kenneth and Sue Ramsey (major breeder owners in the US) are threatening all sorts on their trainers to find them a horse to win a race at Royal Ascot, even if it is a listed race

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Twice Over.
    #1305342
    thejudge1
    thejudge1
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    The problem with discussing Ward is nothing will change until the powers that be (ascot racecourse, the UK racing authorities) stop chasing the money and publicity that overseas raids like Ward brings and get tougher on drugs.

    I doubt that will happen in the near future

    #1305347
    Gingertipster
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    If he so wishes Ward could solve the uncertainty immediately, Judge.
    By inviting British testers to turn up at his stable unanounced. Just like they’re able to test British trained horses/stables.

    value is everything
    #1305350
    thejudge1
    thejudge1
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    I’m not sure that would change anything as a lot of these drug cheats have masking agents, which for example is why Lance Armstrong never failed a drugs test even though he was later exposed as being completely corrupt.

    I’d just like to see a level playing field which unfortunately, going by some of the sentiments expressed on this thread, is way down the list of priorities of many posters who would rather see their bank balance topped up than see a fair sport where everyone has an equal chance and winners are decided on ability not how pumped full of drugs they are.

    #1305359

    greenasgrass
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    What are the rules on nandrolone use in the US? And is the trainer declaration really all there is for Ascot to say that no banned drugs have been used in training? So basically “Scout’s Honour, Sir” rather than a reciprocal arrangement with the US horse racing authorities to do random unannounced testing at the yards? Rules are only as good as their enforcement.

    By the by, I would expect anabolic steroid use to make most difference to horses that naturally are less muscled/ have less of their own natural anabolic steroids. Ie fillies rather than colts, and 2yos rather than older horses.

    #1305367

    ham
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    How on earth does he dominate here? Seriously that must be a joke he had what 4 runners today? How many won?

    The drug talk is absolute nonsense aswell.

    Give the trainer and the horse the merit they deserve and stop pocket talking.

    How is it absolute nonsense? Do some research into ward and drugs. In fact you don’t even need to do any research. Just look at his horses in the parade ring. Even someone of limited intelligence can see there must be something a bit odd going on when some of his horses are twice the size of anything else in the race.

    Their not twice the size of anything because of drugs you fool, do you really not know why their more forward than this side of the worlds 2 year olds??? And the arguement of that against lady aurelia is also absolutely stupid

    I was saying your comment on his dominance is nonsense, he had 4 runners yesterday, 1 winner and 3 unplaced……

    Lady aurelia did not win yesterday because of drugs…. end of, these comments are rediculous

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  ham.
    #1305370
    Gingertipster
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    I didn’t see “A lot” of people tipping her. Anyway, you thought she had an unfair advantage, yet managed to back two others in the race. That makes no logical sense to me. I wouldn’t back a horse I thought was at an unfair disadvantage.

    Each to their own. The pattern is there for all to see with Ward and if you choose to back against them then there really is no excuse for crying foul unless you were unaware of the history.

    Punters are certainly wiring in on Happy Like A Fool tomorrow and it’s been as if Acapulco and Lady Aurelia have been forgotten from the previous two years and some punters needed a slap in the face to wake up.

    God knows. I know that I did Happy Like A Fool at 7/2 and said at the time the money would come once punters took their eyes off the day-in day-out dross and focused on better opportunities.

    TRFers will be glad I won’t go in to percentages again, Steve. :lol: But just because a horse has an unfair advantage does not mean its price is value to win. I don’t think you’d be foolish enough to have backed Happy Like A Fool had the price been 2/7? Successful punters need to judge whether the price makes any advantage/disadvantage worth backing – whether that’s a trip, ground or drugs advantage/disadvantage. So it makes perfect sense to me to back any horse I believe “value”.

    Well done for backing Happy Like A Fool @ 7/2, am envious. 11/10 today is fair, but imo there’s better “value”. Heartache should be in the first three, so around 6/1 is good each way value.

    😉

    Sometimes an overly muscled up, overly mature Ward two year old gets beaten by a good British two year old.

    value is everything
    #1305372

    greenasgrass
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    Well done GT, she did that very nicely.

    #1305374
    thejudge1
    thejudge1
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    How on earth does he dominate here? Seriously that must be a joke he had what 4 runners today? How many won?

    The drug talk is absolute nonsense aswell.

    Give the trainer and the horse the merit they deserve and stop pocket talking.

    How is it absolute nonsense? Do some research into ward and drugs. In fact you don’t even need to do any research. Just look at his horses in the parade ring. Even someone of limited intelligence can see there must be something a bit odd going on when some of his horses are twice the size of anything else in the race.

    Their not twice the size of anything because of drugs you fool, do you really not know why their more forward than this side of the worlds 2 year olds??? And the arguement of that against lady aurelia is also absolutely stupid

    I was saying your comment on his dominance is nonsense, he had 4 runners yesterday, 1 winner and 3 unplaced……

    Lady aurelia did not win yesterday because of drugs…. end of, these comments are rediculous

    You’re the fool judging by your comments “ham”, if you don’t think there’s any drugs involved.

    Still, can’t re-educate the dumb. :scratch:

    Btw it’s “they’re” not “their” in the context of your sentence.

    I suggest you get some basic literacy skills before you start flinging insults at people 😉

    #1305375
    thejudge1
    thejudge1
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    I didn’t see “A lot” of people tipping her. Anyway, you thought she had an unfair advantage, yet managed to back two others in the race. That makes no logical sense to me. I wouldn’t back a horse I thought was at an unfair disadvantage.

    Each to their own. The pattern is there for all to see with Ward and if you choose to back against them then there really is no excuse for crying foul unless you were unaware of the history.

    Punters are certainly wiring in on Happy Like A Fool tomorrow and it’s been as if Acapulco and Lady Aurelia have been forgotten from the previous two years and some punters needed a slap in the face to wake up.

    God knows. I know that I did Happy Like A Fool at 7/2 and said at the time the money would come once punters took their eyes off the day-in day-out dross and focused on better opportunities.

    TRFers will be glad I won’t go in to percentages again, Steve. :lol: But just because a horse has an unfair advantage does not mean its price is value to win. I don’t think you’d be foolish enough to have backed Happy Like A Fool had the price been 2/7? Successful punters need to judge whether the price makes any advantage/disadvantage worth backing – whether that’s a trip, ground or drugs advantage/disadvantage. So it makes perfect sense to me to back any horse I believe “value”.

    Well done for backing Happy Like A Fool @ 7/2, am envious. 11/10 today is fair, but imo there’s better “value”. Heartache should be in the first three, so around 6/1 is good each way value.

    ;-)

    Sometimes an overly muscled up, overly mature Ward two year old gets beaten by a good British two year old.

    Was really a great underdog story, to see the non-drugged up plucky british see off the American monster.

    Got a feeling that pure talent wise Happylikeafool is nothing special and probably would have finished nearer last than first without the injections.

    #1305376
    St Nicholas Abbey
    St Nicholas Abbey
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    Well Lady Aurelia is sticking around for the Nunthorpe Stakes so she will have whatever nefarious substances you folks claim she is on out of her system :wacko: Steroids are illegal in the US and the tracks take drug testing very seriously. Believe it or not American turf horses can in fact beat Europeans on their own merits.

    Wesley Ward IS known as a great trainer of 2yos in the US and the main reason he hasn’t won as many stakes races here recently is that he sends his best horses to run in…England.

    Clenbuterol is not a “steroid” as such, Miss Woodford. But used in the right (wrong) way, it does have the same result… Which is why trainers in Europe are banned from using it on horses in training.

    As I understand it use of Clenbuterol is widespread where Ward trains, he’s actually on record as saying he uses it on all his USA runners. As I understand the drug is allowed there as long as it is out of the horse’s system (untraceable) on race day. Indeed I believe official advice there is to stop using it at least 21 days before race day. Yes, Clenbuterol may be “out of its system”, but muscle growth/maturity does not suddenly disappear after that 21 days. The advantage a horse trained on Clenuterol has against one that is not trained on the drug is muscle/maturity!

    For Ward’s UK runners, all he needs to do is sign a piece of paper saying that his horse/s has/have never been trained on drugs banned in the UK. On the other hand – Uk horses can be tested at any time and if found guilty trainers face the wrath of British authorities. Ward is a multiple offender of even USA rules on Clenuterol, Miss Woodford… And effectively gets a slap on the wrist (short ban) from US authorities. Would you believe this man’s signature when – not just one year but every year – he comes over with overly muscled, overly mature horses?

    I wrote this in a post after last year’s Queen Mary, sorry for being lazy but couldn’t be bothered to write it out again so thought I’d copy and paste as pertinent to the discussion! :good:

    “Interesting point about the clenbuterol. I’m no equine vet and perhaps they know something I don’t, but I would question the wisdom of using a beta-blocker as a long-term measure in racehorses since it has been shown to worsen pulmonary function in humans and in horses; some researchers suggest using it for no longer than two weeks to avoid these effects.

    In studies, clenbuterol has been found to reduce narrowing of the airways in response to histamine in comparison to a placebo, but several treadmill studies have found no improvement in performance with its use. It’s also worth noting that clenbuterol doesn’t seem to have much effect in normal horses (that is, those who do not suffer with allergic airway disease) – but it’s estimated that up to 1/3 of racehorses in training DO suffer with allergic airway disease. In those horses, the use of clenbuterol may be genuinely therapeutic rather than merely performance enhancing.

    There ARE anabolic effects reported with clenbuterol in humans and horses – but in horses these effects are only seen at higher doses (2.4ug/kg twice daily), which is significantly higher than the lower doses used by most racehorse trainers. Additionally, the anabolic effects noted at the higher dose also seemed to wane by 2 weeks in one notable study, so I think any benefit it might have in this sense is unclear.

    Clenbuterol is, as far as I am aware, banned on racedays in the USA with variable withdrawal periods dependent on state (I think it’s usually less than 72 hours). Obviously frusemide (Lasix/Salix) IS allowed on raceday across the pond and that bothers me more. Although it’s used predominantly for its diuretic effects to reduce blood pressure within the lungs and reduce the severity of EIPH (exercise-induced pulmonary haemorrhage), I know that frusemide does have some airway-expanding effects in some species. I honestly don’t know if the same applies to horses.

    I see it as no coincidence that the States breeds some of the most unsound Thoroughbreds in the world, when they are permitted to race on so many medications. Personally I can’t wait until things move on and there is a greater crackdown on the use of drugs in racehorses for reasons other than bona fide medical treatment.”

    #1305378
    Gingertipster
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    Lady aurelia did not win yesterday because of drugs…. end of, these comments are rediculous

    How do you know, Ham?

    Clenbuterol is not a banned sustance in the USA for horses in training. So even if Ward horses are tested by USA authorities why would they test for Clenbuterol? As far as they are concerned he’d be doing nothing wrong by using it.

    Am sure once Ward horses arrive in Britain they are immediately tested by British authorities for all drugs including Clenuterol. However, it’s too late by then. A horse can have Clenbuterol all its life and will only show up if tested within 21 days of use.

    value is everything
    #1305383
    thejudge1
    thejudge1
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    Forget trying to reeducate Ham ginger, he’s the class clown.

    A particularly abrasive and unpleasant poster, he’s flung insults at me before, I have no interest in getting into a slanging match with this eejit. He can’t even spell properly, least of all form a coherent argument.

    However I will say this. Anyone who can’t see that Ward’s runners have a huge physical advantage over their british counterparts, is either blind or an utter moron (I know which one my money is on in hams case.)

    Even francesca cumani was at pains to point out before the race how overdeveloped Happylikeafool was in the parade ring, and described her as looking like a four year old colt.

    But apparently according to the insightful Ham, we’re supposed to put this down to the american horses being more “forward” :wacko:

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