Gigginstown to remove all horses from Phil Smith

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This topic contains 46 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  thewexfordman 1 year, 8 months ago.

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  • #1287586
    steeplechasing
    steeplechasing
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    After the Mullins fees rise, the latest man to arouse the ire of the O’Learys is Phil Smith and his ‘weights rise’.

    Toys once again have been chucked from prams and it looks like Don Poli joins Outlander as a NR in the National.

    Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience, then onlookers might not be able to tell the difference. https://lazybet.com/

    #1287590
    Gladiateur
    Gladiateur
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    Smith is on ATR now with Matt Chapman. Interesting stuff.

    #1287592
    TheGun
    TheGun
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    The O’Learys come across as very petty individuals. I reckon they’re bitter about the lack of star quality in their ranks relative to other owners, despite the massive number of horses they have.

    #1287597
    IBRacing
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    Smith is on ATR now with Matt Chapman. Interesting stuff.

    Absolutely brilliant. Phil Smith was fantastic he completely owned Matt Chapman. How he didn’t throw something at Chappers I don’t know. Top bloke and he and Matt bounce off each other, makes wonderful viewing.

    Typical of Kelleway to make a crass contribution at the end of the show. Everything I’ve seen of that woman makes me think she is absolutely horrible. When she’s on Sunday Forum I literally turn it off. Can’t stand the woman.

    #1287600

    thewexfordman
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    Kelleway comes across as a complete pig alright.
    In relation to Gigginstown, they have no argument with Don Poli he deserves to be carrying that weight.

    However there is a bigger point to be raised here in relation to handicap marks in Britain for Irish horses. Phil smith regardless of what he says clearly thinks the irish handicapper does a poor job with Gordon Elliot.
    If it was just a case that Irish ratings and english ratings are out of line then it should be a standard 6/7 pound rise for all irish horses, not 1 pound for some and 14 for others. This shows that Phil Smith believes that Gordon Elliot gets away with non triers in Ireland, whereas by not punishing willie mullins or noel meade or henry de bromhead to the same extent he is saying that they run their horses on their merits whereas Gordon looks for low handicap marks. The Irish handicapper is clearly letting elliot away with this non trying, whereas Phil Smith is not, and in relation to Mega Fortune and Diamond King as two good examples Smith has basically proven that the irish handicapper is too lenient with elliots horses.

    However Phil smith also appears to be trying to ensure that some irish horses cant qualify for races at cheltenham by either giving them marks too low or marks too high and this appears to be deliberate. For example there is no reason why smith would want to rate the Crafty Butcher 4 pounds LOWER than his irish mark other than he wants to make it very difficult for the horse to have a high enough mark to qualify for a handicap at cheltenham or the grand national, he is racing off 134 in Ireland but has a grand national mark of 130 (9st 4) If smith were to have given him his irish mark plus the usual 3/4 pounds for being irish trained, then that horse would be down to carry 9st 12 in the grand national and thus have a realistic chance of getting a run in the race. He is rising all other irish horses yet he lowers the crafty butcher by 3, despite the fact that he has run very well in big handicaps and is clearly already well handicapped. This shows a bias towards trying to prevent irish horses from winning big handicaps in britain or even getting an opportunity to run in them. Rashaan is another example.

    So O Leary have no case in relation to Don Poli in my opinion, and Phil Smith is clearly better at seeing through elliot than the irish handicapper is, but smith in other cases such as rashaan and the crafty butcher showing that he is deliberately trying to prevent horses from being able to run in or win certain races, and this isnt the purpose of handicapping.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  thewexfordman.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  thewexfordman.
    #1287604
    KingSprinterSacre
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    Ask the handicapper is great and the two produce brilliant debate.
    However as a Matt Chapman defender I was really really disappointed he didn’t push Phil more on the crafty butcher situation.
    Every time Phil comes on he defends his decision to raise Irish horses in the handicap. He states that the Irish handicapper does a great job for Irish handicaps but the scale used is not in sync with Britain so he needs to raise the Irish horses to bring it in line. I’ve no real problem with that if the scale is off. However what he done with the crafty butcher was disgusting. To prevent the horse creeping in at the bottom of the handicap for the Kim Muir he lowered the horse a few pounds (3 I think) to make sure he couldn’t get in. Obviously the crafty butcher would have had a huge chance off bottom weight. Phils attitude was basically – if they don’t like it run him again before the festival weights are announced and i’ll judge it again. They shouldn’t have had to do that – they most likely wanted the horse fresh for the festival instead of running a few weeks beforehand somewhere on poor ground. Also if he goes out and wins on this mark which is lower than it should be he’ll go up quite a bit in the handicap and no longer be close to the bottom weight.
    Phil has basically stuck up a big you are not welcome sign for connections to this horse and its disgusting. Matt didn’t do his job/research in not grilling him more on this one.

    #1287606
    Zamorston
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    When did he drop The Crafty Butcher 3lbs? I thought he said he’d raised the horse 5lbs from (127) to (132) for finishing 2nd…? The horse then ran again but failed to complete…had it completed and won would it have got in? Is that Phil Smiths fault it fell?

    Also, if we use Matt Chapmans theory that he treats Mullins and Elliott different to the tune of 5lbs Don Poli is better in than people think going on last years weights…

    #1287607

    stilvi
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    Sadly, Ask The Handicapper is little more than a pantomime show. Chapman plays the buffoon and makes Smith look good. I am sure this was all agreed before the shows started.

    #1287608

    thewexfordman
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    When did he drop The Crafty Butcher 3lbs? I thought he said he’d raised the horse 5lbs from (127) to (132) for finishing 2nd…? The horse then ran again but failed to complete…had it completed and won would it have got in? Is that Phil Smiths fault it fell?

    Also, if we use Matt Chapmans theory that he treats Mullins and Elliott different to the tune of 5lbs Don Poli is better in than people think going on last years weights…

    The crafty butchers Irish chase mark is 134. Smith gave him a rating of 130 for the grand national and probably any handicap in Cheltenham too in order to ensure he is too low to get a run.

    #1287610
    robnorth
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    Since that statement calls into question Phil Smith’s integrity, would you say that to his face? The idea that the official handicapper should rate a horse to ‘ensure he is too low to get a run’ is absurd.

    #1287612

    thewexfordman
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    Since that statement calls into question Phil Smith’s integrity, would you say that to his face? The idea that the official handicapper should rate a horse to ‘ensure he is too low to get a run’ is absurd.

    Well if its absurd then what’s the explanation as to why this horse was reduced by 4 pounds despite him increasing all other Irish horses?

    #1287613
    Zamorston
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    When did he drop The Crafty Butcher 3lbs? I thought he said he’d raised the horse 5lbs from (127) to (132) for finishing 2nd…? The horse then ran again but failed to complete…had it completed and won would it have got in? Is that Phil Smiths fault it fell?

    Also, if we use Matt Chapmans theory that he treats Mullins and Elliott different to the tune of 5lbs Don Poli is better in than people think going on last years weights…

    The crafty butchers Irish chase mark is 134. Smith gave him a rating of 130 for the grand national and probably any handicap in Cheltenham too in order to ensure he is too low to get a run.

    Ah right! So he didn’t drop him then and it’s all Phil Smiths fault he’s not high enough rated to get in at Cheltenham….nothing to do with the horse not being able to win in his three starts this season? He’s been given two questionable rides and failed to complete on the other yet it’s all the fault of big bad Phil…seriously?

    #1287621
    Nathan Hughes
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    Oh dear, maybe they will run Don Poli on his merit and try win the Gold Cup now.
    Dream on, cowboys…… :bye:

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #1287628
    Ben_Bernanke
    Ben_Bernanke
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    Smith is on ATR now with Matt Chapman. Interesting stuff.

    Absolutely brilliant. Phil Smith was fantastic he completely owned Matt Chapman. How he didn’t throw something at Chappers I don’t know. Top bloke and he and Matt bounce off each other, makes wonderful viewing.

    Typical of Kelleway to make a crass contribution at the end of the show. Everything I’ve seen of that woman makes me think she is absolutely horrible. When she’s on Sunday Forum I literally turn it off. Can’t stand the woman.

    Couldn’t agree more re Smith and Chapman, I love watching them debate/argue. I think Smith manages to stay so calm because he knows Chapman actually deeply respects him and knows the prodding is just for the tv entertainment. Matt often goes out of his way to explain how well-respected Smith is around the world in terms of handicapping and a lot of the time is playing devils advocate rather than genuinely disagreeing with him.

    #1287629
    Ben_Bernanke
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    And I have no problem with Phil Smith raising Elliot’s horses more than other trainers’ runners, it shows he doesn’t want to be mugged off and though it’s not consistent across all trainers; it shows he has an opinion and that’s something you certainly need in this game.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by Ben_Bernanke Ben_Bernanke.
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